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E4RUMOR
10-31-2008, 04:31 PM
As a Military Police Officer, my responsibility is to enforce all rules and regulations aboard the base which I am currently stationed. On a day to day basis, whether in a patrol car, or standing as a sentry at one of the gates, I am exposed to military and non-military violations of these rules and regulations.

Many regulations Marines are ordered to abide by may seem trivial in nature. One of these regulations I would like to point out is the proper liberty attire policy outlined in MCO P10120.28. If you read the order, (which all NCO's and unit leaders should), it outlines exactly what is authorized and not authorized to wear while on liberty or leave as a United State's Marine.

Many Marines in this era are not too fond of property liberty attire regulations, and actively display this. Marines attempt to come aboard the base wearing jeans with tears and holes in them. Marines wear white t-shirts, wife-beaters, earrings, baggy trousers with no belt, base ball caps canted to the side, or have no shave. When this happens, if they have the means to correct themselves, such as putting on a different shirt, or a belt, or fixing their baseball cap, we'll generally let them off with a warning. If it's a violation that cannot be fixed there on the spot, the Marine is issued an MOR (Minor Offense Report), and ordered to report to his/her 1stSgt or SgtMaj. the following day to explain why they were dressed the way they were.

What is amazing about this process is watching the Marine's reaction to being reprimanded, or being asked in a professional manner to fix him/her-self. More times than not, the Marine cops an attitude, and looks at the Military Police like THEY are the ones that are wrong. This reaction is difficult to comprehend, since the example and teaching of proper liberty attire is introduced as early as boot camp, and then re-enforced by units and Marine Corps instillations once the Marines hit the fleet. Every Marine Corps instillation I've visited has posters with picture examples of improper liberty attire placed outside of Marine Corps exchanges and other establishments located on the base. One would think the message is getting out there, but is it?

This next part is probably going to open a can of worms, but it needs to be addressed. While standing with the other gate sentries on a night of duty, we engaged in a conversation about proper liberty attire. I personally brought up the issue of female Marines and their liberty attire. After discussing the issue, we realized that none of us really knew the property liberty attire policy or regulations for female Marines. On a continual basis we would see couples drive up to the gate, with the female passenger in the vehicle dressed in a very immodest or revealing manner. It would always surprise us to discover that she was a United States Marine. From our first impression, she could have been a dependent wife, or a girlfriend. In my personal opinion, there is something wrong with this. If a male Marine is able to be distinguished out in town as being a Marine by his haircut or his liberty attire (provided he's wearing proper liberty attire), why is it that a female Marine is not? Before the retaliation begins, I will give you a perfect example in regards to what I write.

The same night of our conversation, we had a female Gunnery Sergeant drive up to the gate. I asked her where she was coming from, and she informed me she was coming from a bar out in town. While talking to her, I couldn't help but notice her attire. She was wearing a tube top, and very short shorts with high heels. I couldn't help but think to myself, "There's no way she's a gunny." Instantly my respect for her as a woman and a Marine dropped. When asked if she knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines, or Marines in general, she became very offended, and explained to us that female Marines are different than male Marines. She said that male Marines are recognizable out in town because of our hair cuts, therefore, we should be held to a higher standard in regards to the way they dress. However, she explained that it's hard for people to spot a female Marine because there's really nothing that distinguishes her from any other female, and therefore, it really doesn't matter what they wear. She summed up her argument with, "I'm a Gunnery Sergeant. I've been in the Marine Corps for 14 years, so I'll wear whatever I want."

For the remainder of the night, every female Marine that drove through the gate, I would stop and ask them if they knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines. Some of them were dressed in ways that would make you blush, and others were dressed in a modest manner. Imagine my surprise when none of them knew.

After a bit of research, here's the conclusion: there is no liberty attire regulations for female Marines. There are simply proper liberty attire regulations for Marines. Here is an excerpt from the order:

"Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with the Marine Corps." MCO P10120.28 PAR 1005 CH 5 (a).

The important thing to remember here is that we are Marines. We set the standard for others to emulate. We are told on a continual basis that it doesn't matter whether we are male or female; we're all Marines. If this is the case, then we should all be held to the same standard, and that standard should be enforced. If a male Marine is recognized on liberty as being a Marine, there should be something that sets a female Marine apart from other females. We as NCO's and unit leaders need to understand the impact of we make when we choose to dress in an inappropriate manner. What happens when a junior Marine goes out to a club on liberty, and runs across his/her NCO or SNCO at the same club? What happens when he/she sees her/him dressed in a way that is sexually suggestive and immodest in nature? They will never look at that NCO or SNCO the same way, or with the same respect again, because they are seeing parts of their bodies that our usually covered in uniform.

In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar.

I'd have to disagree with the Gunnery Sergeant I mentioned earlier. Marines are Marines, Gunnery Sergeant. How long we have been in, the rank on our collar, and whether we are females or males does not change the fact there are rules in regulations which we are expected to abide by. Especially if we are in a leadership position where we are supposed to set the example for our junior Marines to emulate.
It's time to stand up for what is right NCOs. Even if it is unpopular. The Marine Corps is not a popularity contest. It's an fighting organization steeped in pride and tradition. We are living up to the legacy of those that have passed before us on the battlefront. Let's not lose that discipline and legacy back here in the garrison. Semper Fidelis.

CrimLaw
10-31-2008, 07:46 PM
She was wearing short shorts....wait a minute, isn't that what you guys wear when you do PT? Those itty-bitty green shorts? She was wearing a tube top....so, oh my gawd, her shoulders weren't covered? I'm sorry, but she had a point with what she was saying about a male Marine being blatantly obvious, whereas a female Marine wouldn't be. I understand the Marines are all about high standards, so is every other branch, but sheesh.

USMC_8156
10-31-2008, 09:18 PM
You are the kind of guy who wears short khaki shorts with a webbed belt and his polo tucked in with mandals, aren't you?

Quit being such a tool. They aren't looking at you like you are wrong, they are looking at you thinking "Wow, I haven't met a toolbag like this in a while!"

An attractive woman in a tube top and short shorts makes me blush? Maybe something else, but certainly not blush.

This, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why nobody likes MP's.

Mestisa
10-31-2008, 09:23 PM
Marines obviously have higher standards when it comes to dress and appearance. If there was a group of servicemen in civilian clothes, two branches would be easy to pick out. Marine and Air Force. Marines just because they carry themselves that way. There's a certain demeanor. Air Force, because the muffin top would be hard to miss.

I will say that it's hard to identify ANY servicewoman in civilian clothes just because we don't have as many restrictions as the guys...and it is true that some females go completely overboard when it comes to civilian clothes. It's like that across the different branches.

E4RUMOR
11-01-2008, 12:39 AM
You are the kind of guy who wears short khaki shorts with a webbed belt and his polo tucked in with mandals, aren't you?

Quit being such a tool. They aren't looking at you like you are wrong, they are looking at you thinking "Wow, I haven't met a toolbag like this in a while!"

An attractive woman in a tube top and short shorts makes me blush? Maybe something else, but certainly not blush.

This, Ladies and Gentlemen, is why nobody likes MP's.

Ok, a couple of things here... One, I am not the guy that wears the khaki shorts with a webbed belt and a polo shirt. ( And you repeated 'webbed belt' twice, genious.) Anyway, like I was saying, I'm your average guy that wears jeans, a t-shirt, a belt (not webbed) and boots or tennis shoes. I am not an idiot... obviously, I am not going to dress the same way your father does, but I choose to dress in a way so that I am above reproach.
The way you talk leads me to believe that you are a boot, or that you are young man. Rather than read EVERYTHING I wrote in that article, you chose to pinpoint certain areas and only respond to them, while overlooking other areas of the article alltogether. You refused to have an objective outlook about this. I figure the only reason you have nothing but negative to say about it is because YOU are one of the Marines I am referring to.
Let's take your outlook on it, and just let Marines wear whatever the hell they want. It doesn't hurt anything right? I mean, since doing the right thing is actually being a toolbag, I guess we should all stop doing the right thing. Or maybe I'm just a toolbag by your definition. Got an idea for you... let's go ask a Gunnery Sergeant, 1st Sgt, or MSgt, SgtMaj, or MGySgt what they think.
Or we can just say this is all trivial, because YOU say it is, and just forget about it. We'll let this slide and then some other rule or order, or regulation will come down the line, and it'll seem trivial, so we'll say Screw that too...
Pretty soon, all tradition and pride goes out the window... Congratulations... we're the Army now. Thanks.

E4RUMOR
11-01-2008, 12:42 AM
She was wearing short shorts....wait a minute, isn't that what you guys wear when you do PT? Those itty-bitty green shorts? She was wearing a tube top....so, oh my gawd, her shoulders weren't covered? I'm sorry, but she had a point with what she was saying about a male Marine being blatantly obvious, whereas a female Marine wouldn't be. I understand the Marines are all about high standards, so is every other branch, but sheesh.

That is the prescribed PT gear, and it's getting ready to change to that running suit anyway.

"If a male Marine is recognized on liberty as being a Marine, there should be something that sets a female Marine apart from other females. We as NCO's and unit leaders need to understand the impact of we make when we choose to dress in an inappropriate manner. What happens when a junior Marine goes out to a club on liberty, and runs across his/her NCO or SNCO at the same club? What happens when he/she sees her/him dressed in a way that is sexually suggestive and immodest in nature? They will never look at that NCO or SNCO the same way, or with the same respect again, because they are seeing parts of their bodies that our usually covered in uniform.

In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar."

E4RUMOR
11-01-2008, 12:48 AM
Thank you for the mature response. You made an argument, but you were also objective as well. I understand that it's harder for females to be recognized as being in the Armed Forces. Maybe part of the statement I'm making is that it wouldn't be so hard to be recognize them if they were held to the same standards as their male counterparts. Their dress style would set them apart. For a group of individuals that stress so much about wanting to be treated the same as males, and wanting the same amount of respect, how does it look if the majority of males see examples like this where females are not held to the same standard... because of their sex. Now where's the equal opportunity?

USMC_8156
11-01-2008, 01:17 AM
Ok, a couple of things here... One, I am not the guy that wears the khaki shorts with a webbed belt and a polo shirt. ( And you repeated 'webbed belt' twice, genious.) Anyway, like I was saying, I'm your average guy that wears jeans, a t-shirt, a belt (not webbed) and boots or tennis shoes. I am not an idiot... obviously, I am not going to dress the same way your father does, but I choose to dress in a way so that I am above reproach.
The way you talk leads me to believe that you are a boot, or that you are young man. Rather than read EVERYTHING I wrote in that article, you chose to pinpoint certain areas and only respond to them, while overlooking other areas of the article alltogether. You refused to have an objective outlook about this. I figure the only reason you have nothing but negative to say about it is because YOU are one of the Marines I am referring to.
Let's take your outlook on it, and just let Marines wear whatever the hell they want. It doesn't hurt anything right? I mean, since doing the right thing is actually being a toolbag, I guess we should all stop doing the right thing. Or maybe I'm just a toolbag by your definition. Got an idea for you... let's go ask a Gunnery Sergeant, 1st Sgt, or MSgt, SgtMaj, or MGySgt what they think.
Or we can just say this is all trivial, because YOU say it is, and just forget about it. We'll let this slide and then some other rule or order, or regulation will come down the line, and it'll seem trivial, so we'll say Screw that too...
Pretty soon, all tradition and pride goes out the window... Congratulations... we're the Army now. Thanks.

Yeah. I have an opinon on this because I've been in the Marine Corps long enough to be irritated to death with boots like you who don't know the first thing about operational readiness, and have the sack to stand at the gate and tell my Marines that you are going to write them up for having their hat backwards.

I'm older and far senior to you, so that card fell short. And I didn't use webbed belt twice.

My point is, you need to relax. Bad. Do a couple of deployments, and you will see how trivial proper libery attire is. It has always been something that has been a waste of time, and hopefully once the prohibition on sleeve tattoos lifts, we will see the liberty attire relax. Playing the "we'll be just like the Army lol" card is pretty lame too, hate to break it to you but our mission and theirs isn't all that different these days. Our success is because of our training and operational focus that is above theirs, not because we don't let Lance Coolies wear sideburns.

Until then, I'll be in board shorts and sandals at the grocery store, and I'll wear a hat backwards this weekend just for you...OH NO!

USSConstellation
11-01-2008, 04:05 AM
Yeah. I have an opinon on this because I've been in the Marine Corps long enough to be irritated to death with boots like you who don't know the first thing about operational readiness, and have the sack to stand at the gate and tell my Marines that you are going to write them up for having their hat backwards.

I'm older and far senior to you, so that card fell short. And I didn't use webbed belt twice.

My point is, you need to relax. Bad. Do a couple of deployments, and you will see how trivial proper libery attire is. It has always been something that has been a waste of time, and hopefully once the prohibition on sleeve tattoos lifts, we will see the liberty attire relax. Playing the "we'll be just like the Army lol" card is pretty lame too, hate to break it to you but our mission and theirs isn't all that different these days. Our success is because of our training and operational focus that is above theirs, not because we don't let Lance Coolies wear sideburns.

Until then, I'll be in board shorts and sandals at the grocery store, and I'll wear a hat backwards this weekend just for you...OH NO!


You can tell he has never deployed and has nothing better to do than stand at a gate and instead of making sure terrorists etc don't get on base and drunk drivers are caught, he wants to write paperwork on Marines for stupid shit. Glad to know what MPs at the gate really care about.
He does need a couple deployments under his belt, he is the boot.
The no sleeve tattoo rule is stupid as hell and I won't be in long enough to see if they do end up changing it. I am out of here in 6 months

aaronsandiego
11-01-2008, 07:02 AM
"In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar. "

So Cpl, your telling me that you wear church clothes to the club? Well, have fun with that buddy because if thats the case then yes, you do wear khaki shorts, polo shirts and mandals. BOOT.

SSgtAllen3381
11-01-2008, 07:28 AM
"I'd have to disagree with the Gunnery Sergeant I mentioned earlier. Marines are Marines, Gunnery Sergeant. How long we have been in, the rank on our collar, and whether we are females or males does not change the fact there are rules in regulations which we are expected to abide by. Especially if we are in a leadership position where we are supposed to set the example for our junior Marines to emulate.
It's time to stand up for what is right NCOs. Even if it is unpopular. The Marine Corps is not a popularity contest. It's an fighting organization steeped in pride and tradition. We are living up to the legacy of those that have passed before us on the battlefront. Let's not lose that discipline and legacy back here in the garrison. Semper Fidelis."

You are absolutely right and stand your ground no matter how many feelings you hurt. If a MARINE is wrong, they are WRONG. PERIOD.

While it is obviously hard to tell a Female Marine from a civilian, she should have enough pride in herself and the Marine Corps to follow the rules and regulations.

For the people dogging E4Rumor, get off his back, you are probably the same "Marines" he is talking about and it hit a nerve with you and you are upset; but can't do much about it in a Message Board.

E4, this whole Liberty Attire thing has been beat to death for years and it comes down to this. What is right to wear in my eyes will probably be different in the eyes of someone else. I understand the way the younger Marines dress now is different than when I was a young Marine. So, with that, I take that into consideration when I see a Marine in Civilian Attire.

If he is wearing the baggy jeans and the big shirt, that is FINE with me. But, when those jeans are baggy WITH holes, rips and tears, that is a different story; though the jeans were made like this. Now, the same goes for the "COWBOYS" that run around. Some of those guys look like they just got out of a Rodeo Riding show. They will be addressed the same way the other person was. With tact and understanding of what the situation is.

Unless you know a Female Marine or this Female has her ID hanging from her neck, how will you know? You won't and that's understandable. But if you do know of a Female Marine and she is wearing clothes that show her midriff and her buttcheeks are hanging out of her shorts, she needs to be corrected. The same way the Male Marine was corrected. The Female Marines that I know and have seen out in town are usually dressed like they can go anywhere without looking indecent.

There are rules and regulations that need to be followed by dependents as well. Though this is never enforced, but a person normally doesn't come to the PX or Commissary dressed like they are going to a wet t-shirt contest.

So, to make a short story great, use your judgment and take into consideration who you are talking to. This E7 that you were referring to is wrong in all the right ways. She knows she was wrong, had no way out and used her rank to try and intimidate you. WRONG! If she was to pull that with her 1st Sgt or XO/CO, well, she wouldn't pull that with them and I'm sure when she goes to a casual command function she is all prim and proper, just like the Male Marines do.

8156, not everybody dislikes MPs, they have a job to do just like you do.

E4RUMOR
11-01-2008, 08:43 AM
"I'd have to disagree with the Gunnery Sergeant I mentioned earlier. Marines are Marines, Gunnery Sergeant. How long we have been in, the rank on our collar, and whether we are females or males does not change the fact there are rules in regulations which we are expected to abide by. Especially if we are in a leadership position where we are supposed to set the example for our junior Marines to emulate.
It's time to stand up for what is right NCOs. Even if it is unpopular. The Marine Corps is not a popularity contest. It's an fighting organization steeped in pride and tradition. We are living up to the legacy of those that have passed before us on the battlefront. Let's not lose that discipline and legacy back here in the garrison. Semper Fidelis."

You are absolutely right and stand your ground no matter how many feelings you hurt. If a MARINE is wrong, they are WRONG. PERIOD.

While it is obviously hard to tell a Female Marine from a civilian, she should have enough pride in herself and the Marine Corps to follow the rules and regulations.

For the people dogging E4Rumor, get off his back, you are probably the same "Marines" he is talking about and it hit a nerve with you and you are upset; but can't do much about it in a Message Board.

E4, this whole Liberty Attire thing has been beat to death for years and it comes down to this. What is right to wear in my eyes will probably be different in the eyes of someone else. I understand the way the younger Marines dress now is different than when I was a young Marine. So, with that, I take that into consideration when I see a Marine in Civilian Attire.

If he is wearing the baggy jeans and the big shirt, that is FINE with me. But, when those jeans are baggy WITH holes, rips and tears, that is a different story; though the jeans were made like this. Now, the same goes for the "COWBOYS" that run around. Some of those guys look like they just got out of a Rodeo Riding show. They will be addressed the same way the other person was. With tact and understanding of what the situation is.

Unless you know a Female Marine or this Female has her ID hanging from her neck, how will you know? You won't and that's understandable. But if you do know of a Female Marine and she is wearing clothes that show her midriff and her buttcheeks are hanging out of her shorts, she needs to be corrected. The same way the Male Marine was corrected. The Female Marines that I know and have seen out in town are usually dressed like they can go anywhere without looking indecent.

There are rules and regulations that need to be followed by dependents as well. Though this is never enforced, but a person normally doesn't come to the PX or Commissary dressed like they are going to a wet t-shirt contest.

So, to make a short story great, use your judgment and take into consideration who you are talking to. This E7 that you were referring to is wrong in all the right ways. She knows she was wrong, had no way out and used her rank to try and intimidate you. WRONG! If she was to pull that with her 1st Sgt or XO/CO, well, she wouldn't pull that with them and I'm sure when she goes to a casual command function she is all prim and proper, just like the Male Marines do.

8156, not everybody dislikes MPs, they have a job to do just like you do.

SSgt,
That was probably the most mature response I have received while being on this website. I appreciate your insight on the subject. You're right when you mentioned that this topic has been beat to death. I realize that the times have changed, and methods of dressing have changed as well. Here's the way I see it: if what is outlined in the order is too old fashioned, then they need to change the order. If it's not, whether you or I agree with it, we have a responsibility to enforce it. Obviously, if a Marine is wearing baggy jeans and a large shirt that is not meant to be tucked in, I'd be the same as you and not have a problem with it. When I'm at the gate, and Marines roll through, I don't stop a Marine just because they are dressed like 50-Cent. It's blatant disregard to policies that piss me off.

For the rest of you:
For your information, I HAVE deployed to Iraq with a grunt unit based out of Hawaii, and that was in early '06. So your whole scenario about the policy not mattering because being it doesn't affect operational readiness is moot. The liberty attire policy was enforced in that Battalion when we were back in the rear, and not playing in the "sandbox". Not that I really care about the whole deployment issue, because who hasn't deployed to Iraq these days? It's not really a big deal. Oh, but since we're on the topic, let's go ask the grunts what their definition of a boot is... hmmmm.... wow...and guess what? I did a combat pump.... guess I don't fit in that bracket anymore, either. Semper Fidelis, folks.

E4RUMOR
11-01-2008, 09:06 AM
You can tell he has never deployed and has nothing better to do than stand at a gate and instead of making sure terrorists etc don't get on base and drunk drivers are caught, he wants to write paperwork on Marines for stupid shit. Glad to know what MPs at the gate really care about.
He does need a couple deployments under his belt, he is the boot.
The no sleeve tattoo rule is stupid as hell and I won't be in long enough to see if they do end up changing it. I am out of here in 6 months

Constellation,
Stand a day in my shoes at that gate where it seems all MPs like to do is burn other Marines. I'm sure if you screw up in your job in some way or another, you probably get your ass chewed by your supervisor. Let's just say, for example, I didn't like being an MP and I didn't give a shit about proper liberty attire. Let's just say I didn't give a shit about anything coming through the gate... I just waved everyone in. Then my Watch Commander stands at the gate with me, and asks me why I didn't correct that Marine coming through the gate wearing earrings in his ears, or just a plain white t-shirt, or no shave? What am I going to do? Look at my Supervisor and tell him," The liberty attire policy is worthless and retarded, sir, and I don't agree with it, so I'm not going to enforce it." Yeah, that's really smart. That would bring an ass chewing from hell. You'd probably tell me just to enforce it while the higher ups are around, and then go back to doing my own thing when they are gone. Then that turns me into that hypocrite so many people refer to MPs as.
Ehhhhh it's like I said before, when I wrote the article.. This is not the only issue that seems trivial to Marines, and a rule or regulation they hate. There's other ones too.. Ones I'm sure even YOU hate... kinda like that tattoo policy you were mentioning. Funny thing is that hating it all you want doesn't change it.
Oh, and being a boot? Everyone is boot to someone else... would it surprise you to know that someone that someone who had done a combat pump with a grunt unit, and is on his 6th year in the Corps is bringing something like this up? Yeah, me too.

SSgtAllen3381
11-01-2008, 09:12 AM
Deployments have no bearing on this subject or respect for deploying. If you have deployed and are a good Marine...GREAT. If you haven't deployed and are a good Marine...GREAT. Either of you should know that by now and it's not worth arguing over.

USSConstellation
11-01-2008, 09:23 AM
Careful....YOU might open a can of worms saying shit like that.

I'm not opening any cans of worms on that subject, I have been around enough on this forum to know what few grunts think and say on the issue. I've been around more than you..... I don't care if I open a can of worms or not.

USSConstellation
11-01-2008, 09:25 AM
Deployments have no bearing on this subject or respect for deploying. If you have deployed and are a good Marine...GREAT. If you haven't deployed and are a good Marine...GREAT. Either of you should know that by now and it's not worth arguing over.

this has nothing to do with who is a better Marine, deployed Marines or non deployed Marines. I am just saying that after 3 deployments to Iraq and allthe shit that I have been through, i don't give a shit how a Marine acts or dresses anymore, I just don't care. If I can depend on him in Iraq, then he or she is good to go, and thats what I care about. My life and theirs, not the way they talk act or dress

E4RUMOR
11-01-2008, 10:00 AM
this has nothing to do with who is a better Marine, deployed Marines or non deployed Marines. I am just saying that after 3 deployments to Iraq and allthe shit that I have been through, i don't give a shit how a Marine acts or dresses anymore, I just don't care. If I can depend on him in Iraq, then he or she is good to go, and thats what I care about. My life and theirs, not the way they talk act or dress

The amazing thing is that we have 1st Sgts, Master Sergeants, Sergeant Majors, Mastergunnery Sergeants, and people that have done more combat deployments than either you or I put together. I wonder why they still care.. and far be it for me to contradict you here, but what you implied is that a Marine that has deployed IS better than one who hasn't. LOL... Go back and read what you wrote.. it's exactly what you said.. that's why I told you to be careful. But, you said you didn't care if you opened a can of worms or not. Now all the sudden, you're reversing yourself? I even made it bold... read that line, and tell me what others would think... Hey, but that makes for a GREAT discussion topic... Thanks.

SSgtAllen3381
11-01-2008, 10:08 AM
this has nothing to do with who is a better Marine, deployed Marines or non deployed Marines. I am just saying that after 3 deployments to Iraq and allthe shit that I have been through, i don't give a shit how a Marine acts or dresses anymore, I just don't care. If I can depend on him in Iraq, then he or she is good to go, and thats what I care about. My life and theirs, not the way they talk act or dress

I can understand that too, but it has nothing to do with this thread. If you don't care, why respond to what he is saying? Another thing, how can you not care and you are a Sergeant in the Marine Corps? I find it hard to believe that you don't. But..that is just me.

commonsense101
11-02-2008, 07:31 AM
What does deployments have to do with proper liberty attire??? or enforcing the order? The MP is just doing his job. MP's aren't the only hypocrites. The Gunny knew she was wrong which is why she pulled rank. I felt the same way USS Constellation felt when I got back from deployment..that's why I got out. When you stop caring about things you're supposed to care about (even if it seems small and insignificant) it's time to find a new job. Enforcing liberty attire was something I could've cared less about (I would be the last one to correct someone about their clothes)

CSBurns
11-02-2008, 04:42 PM
There are some liberty attire rules that I think are lame but at the same time we need to ve presentable when we are out in public.


Be thankful you don't have to wear socks with open toe sandals anymore......OMFG that was ghey!

ChiefAD
11-02-2008, 05:34 PM
As a former Marine and Army MP, there is a difference from the mindset of a garrison MP and a tactical MP. Garrison MPs are wrapped a little tight and follow the regs to the Tee. Just do your job MP and let leaders of Marines do the others. No need to cause a ruckus because we all have jobs to do now and days.

That is why I can understand the backlash of the MP Corps.

Semper fi.

Of the troops, for the troops

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/signalwarrant/sandstorm20002.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/signalwarrant/060303-A-0559K-041.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/signalwarrant/onnightpatrol.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/signalwarrant/060303-A-0559K-025.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f252/signalwarrant/fellowmps.jpg

101st MPs in a firefight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xffm-VGniU

E4RUMOR
11-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Good old Ft. Campbell. I'm from that area.. about 60 miles north of it actually. Visited the base a few times while on leave.

ChiefAD
11-03-2008, 03:18 PM
ooh rah devil dog!! awesome big base but I hope to never return lol. I am in Germany now and I like the environment here much better. I remember seeing Marine MPs at Lejeune last year. We had to drop off a prisoner over there. Crazy stuff. Army MPs always want to have the badges back on the uniforms like the Marines but it will remain a no-go.

The soldier in the second pic with the M-16 at the ready was a former Marine as well. He hated changing from corporal to specialist. But Army corporals dont carry the same clout and respect as Marine corporals. Sad but true.

Have a nice day High Speed.

WO1 Q

Sgt Admin
11-03-2008, 06:38 PM
A Marine Corps order, is a Marine Corps order...plain and simple. It doesn't mean if your a Gunny that you don't have to listen. Orders are always being bent to fit the needs of the person bending them. I for one have no respect for any rank that practices breaking Marine Corps orders and then charges lower ranking Marines with the same infraction that they carried out.

SSgtAllen3381
11-03-2008, 08:03 PM
Good old Ft. Campbell. I'm from that area.. about 60 miles north of it actually. Visited the base a few times while on leave.

I'm from Louisville and I went to Fort Knox for my weekend duty when I got out and decided to join the Reserves; that was a mistake.

I've never been to Ft. Campbell, but when I was stationed at Fort Lee, the soldiers there said that it was nice.

notamotogrunt
11-05-2008, 10:49 AM
E4 boot. Stop correcting marines at the gate. That is DUMB. I know youre bored and want to be as moto as you can standing there with your M16 A2 at the alert with no rounds in it and making that text book arm motion to move cars on and off base, but mind you own FUCKING BUSINESS when it comes to the marine in the vehicle. Shit if a good looking wm gunny came through my post dressing like that the last thing on my mind is whether or not shes outta regs, id be wondering what shed look like outta clothes. You sir, have been brainwashed by the suck.
And if you tried to write me up for that I would probably end up in the brig or get all marine corps on you and put you at PR and start giving you an ass chewing that would hurt the guys feelings in the car behind me for christ sake. Take a look at what you are doing for a living, checking tags, saluting cars, and .........thats it.
Theres a reason they stuck you out there dude.

wzgriffith
11-05-2008, 04:07 PM
While i think "proper civillian attire" when followed to the "T" makes you look like a tool, Marines shouldn't dress like slobs. Its all subjective. My point of view is there's nothing wrong with flip-flops, but to a lot of salts there is. We should all dress however we want, but be willing to deal with the consequences when Sgt.Maj. Motard sees us. I dont care how the senior leaders dress, but its when I see then not following the basic guildlines for something (like civilian attire) I'm more apt to blow them off if they try and correct me on something.

Sgt Admin
11-05-2008, 04:08 PM
While i think "proper civillian attire" when followed to the "T" makes you look like a tool, Marines shouldn't dress like slobs. Its all subjective. My point of view is there's nothing wrong with flip-flops, but to a lot of salts there is. We should all dress however we want, but be willing to deal with the consequences when Sgt.Maj. Motard sees us. I dont care how the senior leaders dress, but its when I see then not following the basic guildlines for something (like civilian attire) I'm more apt to blow them off if they try and correct me on something.

Bingo! Do as I say, not as I do.... that doesn't work with me either. I agree with you totally!

Battleshort
11-05-2008, 04:14 PM
The term "proper civilian attire" is relative.

Relative to your location in the world and to the setting in which you located.

For example - Hawaii. Flip-flops (or slippahs) are a norm on liberty in any casual setting. NEX, commisary, town, whatever. If decorum dictates, you wear something more appropriate.

CplH5811
11-05-2008, 08:33 PM
As a former Marine and Army MP, there is a difference from the mindset of a garrison MP and a tactical MP. Garrison MPs are wrapped a little tight and follow the regs to the Tee. Just do your job MP and let leaders of Marines do the others. No need to cause a ruckus because we all have jobs to do now and days.

Well, if people followed the rules in the first place, we wouldn't have to worry about enforcing the regulations so bad and focs on more important things on the bases. Not to say that all we do is look for Sgt Johnson not wearing his dog tags or a belt. It's just that it does come up when we're patroling and since that's the only infraction that we are seeing at the time, we enforce it. If we didn't, all of you complaining that we are being jerks about it would be asking why we aren't doing our jobs. Just get used to the fact that we are here to enforce regulations. If you dress appropriately, don't worry about anything. If you CHOOSE to, be prepared to catch some flak about it.

commonsense101
11-05-2008, 08:42 PM
I agree 100%. with the previous post.

jhb3043
11-06-2008, 08:44 PM
damn that female Gunny sounds hawt!! :D :cool:

weazlefuzion
11-07-2008, 03:00 AM
E4 boot. Stop correcting marines at the gate. That is DUMB. I know youre bored and want to be as moto as you can standing there with your M16 A2 at the alert with no rounds in it and making that text book arm motion to move cars on and off base, but mind you own FUCKING BUSINESS when it comes to the marine in the vehicle. Shit if a good looking wm gunny came through my post dressing like that the last thing on my mind is whether or not shes outta regs, id be wondering what shed look like outta clothes. You sir, have been brainwashed by the suck.
And if you tried to write me up for that I would probably end up in the brig or get all marine corps on you and put you at PR and start giving you an ass chewing that would hurt the guys feelings in the car behind me for christ sake. Take a look at what you are doing for a living, checking tags, saluting cars, and .........thats it.
Theres a reason they stuck you out there dude.

I'll first say that I am not a Marine. I'd certainly love to be for many reasons and not love to be for others. That's neither here nor there however, because the Marine Corps is what it is for every reason that E4RUMOR cites. People don't join the Corps just to blow shit up; you can do that in the Army. Many new recruits join the Corps because of the tradition, heritage, pride and honor that come with being a Marine. An MCO is an MCO just like an AFI is an AFI and an AR an AR. It is an order covered under Article 92 of the UCMJ. I'm sure your 1Sgt or Master Guns would be out there ripping people open for walking on the installation with earrings or a female for wearing a tube top. He's not out there because he delegates that responsibility to MPs and NCOs and expects that they are doing their job.

When you get past all the inter-service rivalry garbage, I look at the Marine Corps as the most professional of all the military organizations. Around here, a training base with mostly new Marines, you can pick them out at a bar or club in a heartbeat. They are wearing normal jeans and t-shirt, and even most of the female Marines are dressed properly (though as has been said, it's harder to identify them, you usually have to ask). I am embarrassed when I see how most of the other services dress both on and off the base. I can see all the cleavage and ass I want in civilians and college students. The Marines however have the pride to look professional at all times and I'm proud to be associated with them by simple virtue of being in the same military.

Forget the naysayers, E4RUMOR, and continue doing your job correctly. It's this type of peer leadership that keeps the Corps the professional organization that it is and I'd love to have you working the gate here any day.

weazlefuzion
11-07-2008, 03:06 AM
Additionally, it isn't always about what the civilians think about the military. It's just as much about what the junior enlisted member thinks about his superiors. I recently saw a particular E-6 at a bar, in blues (Marine), drunk out of her mind, dancing, and generally having a good time. Now, being in TX, I'm sure even civilians would overlook it as a military member just needing a break.

That's great, but how does she appear to the Cpl beneath her now? Or to the Pvt she just counseled last week for unprofessional behavior? In public, someone is always watching. I think she looked damn sexy, even in uniform, which is great, but if she were my platoon leader, I'd certainly end up looking at her differently, whether that's correct or not. The junior Marine is the one that may not understand the professional/personal life separation and that's why he looks to the superior.

Obviously she was in uniform so this is a bit different, but the concept is the same. It is just as easy to project an unprofessional appearance to a junior enlisted Marine as it is to project that same image to a civilian.

Lone_NCO
11-07-2008, 12:24 PM
Apologize for the late entry.

I'll say this E4 Rumor, I dont justify or agree with anything starting with because i'm a...whatever . However liberty attire has been an issue in my career from pvt to now. To be perfectly honest if I followed the MCO i'd feel like a loser flat out. Thats not who I was, am, or ever will be.

This is my problem, you have your regs that are cut and dry (Marines will report to their admin 10 days prior to separation departure date) there is no moral issues behind that, and yet the rules are bent to hook up Marines, because some SNCO/NCO didnt do their job. Then you have this case were somebody, somewhere is gonna try to tell me because I wear my clothes a little bit bigger with my J's and tims somehow they can judge my character?!? If your judging somebody by appearence then odds are your already ignorant (not directing at you in particular), and your about to piss off and screw over a lot of Marines (that part is directed towards you) because of what somebody else decided was the correct way to wear clothes? (To be exact a 50yr old guy from arkansas)To take it a step further depending on where your from it may be how you dress nice. Thats why i'd have Cpl who might tell me my pants were big, and a GySgt tell me i'm looking smooth.

Point is i'm a Marine, I put in 100% into everything I do, and i'm damn good at it. So for someone to question me, my accomplishments or capabilities as a Marine by my jeans and choice of shirt size is retarded. I guess i'm just going to assume you grew up in the suburbs and are a snitch because your an MP with a screen name rumor (example).

On a less personal note, I really think you should be aware of what it is exactly that your doing. Marines are going on 3 and 4 deployments in one enlistment these days. Some just wanna come home go to the club, bar, or whatever and relax on the weekends for there 6 months or so in the rear. Why create that issue for yourself and even your MOS, as you heard MPs are not popular. I believe in correcting a Marine for being wrong in most cases, but not when it serves absolutely no purpose. At the point your catching these Marines what are they doing? Trying to go home and go to Sleep!!! They already did the deed.

Also, you will always have Marines question you on first glance by appearance (thats fine everybody has a first impression) but how you conduct yourself as a leader determines how they respond to you.

Rawr
11-07-2008, 03:43 PM
I know youre bored and want to be as moto as you can standing there with your M16 A2 at the alert with no rounds in it and making that text book arm motion to move cars on and off base,

sorry, but ROFL


My name is Cpl John Doe, and I am a United States Marine. My primary mission is to make people tuck their shirts in.

in any case, my solution has always been simple: i dont flash the military ID, i flash the drivers' license. i am just here to visit my girlfriend, thank you very much. thank you for your service.

weazlefuzion
11-07-2008, 04:28 PM
Apologize for the late entry.

I'll say this E4 Rumor, I dont justify or agree with anything starting with because i'm a...whatever . However liberty attire has been an issue in my career from pvt to now. To be perfectly honest if I followed the MCO i'd feel like a loser flat out. Thats not who I was, am, or ever will be.

This is my problem, you have your regs that are cut and dry (Marines will report to their admin 10 days prior to separation departure date) there is no moral issues behind that, and yet the rules are bent to hook up Marines, because some SNCO/NCO didnt do their job. Then you have this case were somebody, somewhere is gonna try to tell me because I wear my clothes a little bit bigger with my J's and tims somehow they can judge my character?!? If your judging somebody by appearence then odds are your already ignorant (not directing at you in particular), and your about to piss off and screw over a lot of Marines (that part is directed towards you) because of what somebody else decided was the correct way to wear clothes? (To be exact a 50yr old guy from arkansas)To take it a step further depending on where your from it may be how you dress nice. Thats why i'd have Cpl who might tell me my pants were big, and a GySgt tell me i'm looking smooth.

Point is i'm a Marine, I put in 100% into everything I do, and i'm damn good at it. So for someone to question me, my accomplishments or capabilities as a Marine by my jeans and choice of shirt size is retarded. I guess i'm just going to assume you grew up in the suburbs and are a snitch because your an MP with a screen name rumor (example).

On a less personal note, I really think you should be aware of what it is exactly that your doing. Marines are going on 3 and 4 deployments in one enlistment these days. Some just wanna come home go to the club, bar, or whatever and relax on the weekends for there 6 months or so in the rear. Why create that issue for yourself and even your MOS, as you heard MPs are not popular. I believe in correcting a Marine for being wrong in most cases, but not when it serves absolutely no purpose. At the point your catching these Marines what are they doing? Trying to go home and go to Sleep!!! They already did the deed.

Also, you will always have Marines question you on first glance by appearance (thats fine everybody has a first impression) but how you conduct yourself as a leader determines how they respond to you.

You're definitely right regarding the 50yr old guy from Arkansas writing those rules and possibly being out of touch and even correct about the differences in what is deemed appropriate based on your location. However, is this the best way to challenge a policy... by ignoring it? The appropriate attire is not to be decided by the lowly Cpl, it's to be decided by his superior. So if he writes up the MOR for Pvt Smith and 1Sgt scolds Smith, then he's probably doing his job right. If the 1Sgt disagreed with the way the Cpl is running the gate, he'd tell him to stop being a tool. The point is, he's doing what he's supposed to do until he's told otherwise by a superior. He doesn't have the authority to change the MCO; he has the authority to refer Marines to the CoC and let them decide if it was right.

Whether you think he's being some motogrunt or not is irrelevant. He's doing what is expected of him and that should be appreciated, even if you feel he's going over the top. Let his leadership decide the interpretation of "over the top".

Lone_NCO
11-07-2008, 06:23 PM
You're definitely right regarding the 50yr old guy from Arkansas writing those rules and possibly being out of touch and even correct about the differences in what is deemed appropriate based on your location. However, is this the best way to challenge a policy... by ignoring it? The appropriate attire is not to be decided by the lowly Cpl, it's to be decided by his superior. So if he writes up the MOR for Pvt Smith and 1Sgt scolds Smith, then he's probably doing his job right. If the 1Sgt disagreed with the way the Cpl is running the gate, he'd tell him to stop being a tool. The point is, he's doing what he's supposed to do until he's told otherwise by a superior. He doesn't have the authority to change the MCO; he has the authority to refer Marines to the CoC and let them decide if it was right.

Whether you think he's being some motogrunt or not is irrelevant. He's doing what is expected of him and that should be appreciated, even if you feel he's going over the top. Let his leadership decide the interpretation of "over the top".

My little rant earlier was aimed at the civilian attire regs, not the actual situation.

I understand and agree as far as the Cpls actions, even I adhere to the likes and dislikes of my superiors at times simply becuase of rank. I forgot to mention that in my post, I disagree completely with the reason i'm doing it, but I still adapt for the given situation. I dont understand why in the world the GySgt didnt just put on some sweats or something coming back on base.

Also, strange as this may sound I'm so adamant about this topic because its a very large part of what made me the Marine I am. People being so judgmental of shirts, pants, and shoes thinking I was a dirt bag or whatever, actually made me strive to be better. From me being a Pvt/PFC on I realized if I didnt like something and wanting to change it or have any impact i'd have to climb the ranks. Then as a LCpl/Cpl running my shop I began to feel the impact I could create within my own section. Now as a Sgt I look to keep moving up and increasing my influence to use my abilities for the good of the Corps as a whole.

CplH5811
11-09-2008, 07:53 PM
Apologize for the late entry.

I'll say this E4 Rumor, I dont justify or agree with anything starting with because i'm a...whatever . However liberty attire has been an issue in my career from pvt to now. To be perfectly honest if I followed the MCO i'd feel like a loser flat out. Thats not who I was, am, or ever will be.

This is my problem, you have your regs that are cut and dry (Marines will report to their admin 10 days prior to separation departure date) there is no moral issues behind that, and yet the rules are bent to hook up Marines, because some SNCO/NCO didnt do their job. Then you have this case were somebody, somewhere is gonna try to tell me because I wear my clothes a little bit bigger with my J's and tims somehow they can judge my character?!? If your judging somebody by appearence then odds are your already ignorant (not directing at you in particular), and your about to piss off and screw over a lot of Marines (that part is directed towards you) because of what somebody else decided was the correct way to wear clothes? (To be exact a 50yr old guy from arkansas)To take it a step further depending on where your from it may be how you dress nice. Thats why i'd have Cpl who might tell me my pants were big, and a GySgt tell me i'm looking smooth.

I can't believe that I just read all of that. Even though I understand that we all want to relax at one point and clothing can help in that aspect, I don't see how looking like some idiot who mugged some fat guy who was passing and put on his clothes is evidence of that though. The fact is, everyone judges other people by the first glance. But, there is one large point that you are ignoring: YOU'RE IN THE MILITARY!. You signed away many of your flexible rights when you chose to sign the dotted line. Why some people can't accept that is beyond me.


Point is i'm a Marine, I put in 100% into everything I do, and i'm damn good at it. So for someone to question me, my accomplishments or capabilities as a Marine by my jeans and choice of shirt size is retarded. I guess i'm just going to assume you grew up in the suburbs and are a snitch because your an MP with a screen name rumor (example).

On a less personal note, I really think you should be aware of what it is exactly that your doing. Marines are going on 3 and 4 deployments in one enlistment these days. Some just wanna come home go to the club, bar, or whatever and relax on the weekends for there 6 months or so in the rear. Why create that issue for yourself and even your MOS, as you heard MPs are not popular. I believe in correcting a Marine for being wrong in most cases, but not when it serves absolutely no purpose. At the point your catching these Marines what are they doing? Trying to go home and go to Sleep!!! They already did the deed.

Also, you will always have Marines question you on first glance by appearance (thats fine everybody has a first impression) but how you conduct yourself as a leader determines how they respond to you.

I would like to know what some of the instances are when it serves no purpose to correct a Marine. Other than the current issue. Because it all comes down to discipline. You know, one of the cornerstones of what we're built on since boot camp.

The bottom line is that no one is telling you that you have to wear a polo shirt and that it must be tucked in at all times. There is nothing wrong with wearing SLIGHTLY baggy clothing. But some of the stuff that I have seen coming through the gate and out in town just pisses me off. Is it so hard for everyone to just except the fact that you need to dress like you're not back on the block? If so, we have quite a few issues to work out.

LeaderOfMarines
11-09-2008, 10:03 PM
You signed away many of your flexible rights when you chose to sign the dotted line.
Where does your contract say that? I don't remember reading that......(scratching my head) Does this mean we can't vote either since were not allowed to ponder in political renderings???????????

CplH5811
11-09-2008, 10:06 PM
Where does your contract say that? I don't remember reading that......(scratching my head) Does this mean we can't vote either since were not allowed to ponder in political renderings???????????

Argument for the sake of arguement is pretty stupid if you ask me. Once you sign your contract, you are subject to the UCMJ and all other forms of rules and regulations. Case in point, proper liberty attire.

SEMPERMAN
11-10-2008, 01:26 AM
maybe that wm gunny was out looking for some wang.

Lone_NCO
11-10-2008, 12:33 PM
I can't believe that I just read all of that. Even though I understand that we all want to relax at one point and clothing can help in that aspect, I don't see how looking like some idiot who mugged some fat guy who was passing and put on his clothes is evidence of that though. The fact is, everyone judges other people by the first glance. But, there is one large point that you are ignoring: YOU'RE IN THE MILITARY!. You signed away many of your flexible rights when you chose to sign the dotted line. Why some people can't accept that is beyond me.



I would like to know what some of the instances are when it serves no purpose to correct a Marine. Other than the current issue. Because it all comes down to discipline. You know, one of the cornerstones of what we're built on since boot camp.

The bottom line is that no one is telling you that you have to wear a polo shirt and that it must be tucked in at all times. There is nothing wrong with wearing SLIGHTLY baggy clothing. But some of the stuff that I have seen coming through the gate and out in town just pisses me off. Is it so hard for everyone to just except the fact that you need to dress like you're not back on the block? If so, we have quite a few issues to work out.

First of all I doubt you have any comprehension of what it would look like to be "back on the block" in the first place neither do alot of other people who say it, so I dont hold it against you. Second, yes we are in the military, does that somehow mean we're supposed to AGREE with all the rules? Go head and tell me you AGREE with all the rules if you want and i'm gonna laugh in your face and call you a liar. Sorry, but no one in the world AGREES with all the rules in the Marine Corps because you didnt make them. (please note I capped the agree, because I didnt want any confusion between agree and obey) I remember you were supposed to tuck in a basketball or football jersey...? who the hell tucks in a jersey? Thats just one dumb example.

By the way you just stated your personal opinion of how you dont like baggy clothes...clearly your not like me, like I said previously to somebody a certain outfit make look nice, to someone else it may not. I very much doubt I would ever wear the same clothes as you by your choice comments. Oh and dont let me forget, we are all in the military, so if the rules were you have to wear baggy pants then I suppose you'd just gladly go out and buy them right?

Anyway I was trying to tell you to understand what you were doing. For example, you piss off that gunny, come to find shes about to transfer to your unit and become the company GySgt. She sees you again doing...whatever, Cpl you have duty here, or working party...whatever, you may need her to sign off on something for you. You never know, and the bad part is, that applies to alot of other Marines, Sgts and Cpls especially. You dont wanna piss off your admin, or your supply, especially not your disbo. The Marine Corps is a very small place you never know when you'll see somebody from before.

Lone_NCO
11-10-2008, 12:36 PM
maybe that wm gunny was out looking for some wang.

Yep, probly so. She shoulda just been smarter about it. I dont know of any order against that.

Lone_NCO
11-10-2008, 12:37 PM
Argument for the sake of arguement is pretty stupid if you ask me. Once you sign your contract, you are subject to the UCMJ and all other forms of rules and regulations. Case in point, proper liberty attire.

...Your really gonna say that to a Capt? Sure you care about the UCMJ as much as you say you do?

CplH5811
11-10-2008, 07:02 PM
First of all I doubt you have any comprehension of what it would look like to be "back on the block" in the first place neither do alot of other people who say it, so I dont hold it against you. Second, yes we are in the military, does that somehow mean we're supposed to AGREE with all the rules? Go head and tell me you AGREE with all the rules if you want and i'm gonna laugh in your face and call you a liar. Sorry, but no one in the world AGREES with all the rules in the Marine Corps because you didnt make them. (please note I capped the agree, because I didnt want any confusion between agree and obey) I remember you were supposed to tuck in a basketball or football jersey...? who the hell tucks in a jersey? Thats just one dumb example.

By the way you just stated your personal opinion of how you dont like baggy clothes...clearly your not like me, like I said previously to somebody a certain outfit make look nice, to someone else it may not. I very much doubt I would ever wear the same clothes as you by your choice comments. Oh and dont let me forget, we are all in the military, so if the rules were you have to wear baggy pants then I suppose you'd just gladly go out and buy them right?

Anyway I was trying to tell you to understand what you were doing. For example, you piss off that gunny, come to find shes about to transfer to your unit and become the company GySgt. She sees you again doing...whatever, Cpl you have duty here, or working party...whatever, you may need her to sign off on something for you. You never know, and the bad part is, that applies to alot of other Marines, Sgts and Cpls especially. You dont wanna piss off your admin, or your supply, especially not your disbo. The Marine Corps is a very small place you never know when you'll see somebody from before.

You made some very good points. And no, I don't agree with every rule and regulation. As you said, no one ever does. Although I understand that what looks good to one may not to another, the fact is that to the people in charge there is and established description to what looks professional. I just have a hard time trying to understand why some people have such a hard time accepting that because they volunteered to join the military, they have to change their clothing style a bit. Personally, I have bigger fish to fry than clothing regulations. But if it is something that they know they shouldn't be wearing, I will say something.

CplH5811
11-10-2008, 07:07 PM
...Your really gonna say that to a Capt? Sure you care about the UCMJ as much as you say you do?

Are you serious? Usually you have something intelligent to say. But by asking that question you made me think twice.

LeaderOfMarines
11-10-2008, 10:25 PM
Argument for the sake of arguement is pretty stupid if you ask me. Once you sign your contract, you are subject to the UCMJ and all other forms of rules and regulations. Case in point, proper liberty attire.

Well since were all subject to the UCMJ, might as well go sign up for office hours on monday since I know you have broken several orders, maybe you just don't know which ones they are. You can always get a Marine with the one about only using the missionary position during sexual activity....but I break that one all the time and I'm proud of it. Just don't be one of those Marines who break the one's they want, and then are dick's about other ones.

Rawr
11-11-2008, 03:12 AM
Well since were all subject to the UCMJ, might as well go sign up for office hours on monday since I know you have broken several orders, maybe you just don't know which ones they are. You can always get a Marine with the one about only using the missionary position during sexual activity....but I break that one all the time and I'm proud of it. Just don't be one of those Marines who break the one's they want, and then are dick's about other ones.

civilians have public prosecutors. they decide weather or not they want to bother prosecuting you over every little thing.

in the military, you have your CO and/or MPs and/or NCIS. exact same thing - he/she/they are under no obligation whatsoever to prosecute you or launch an investigation if they dont feel like it.


Where does your contract say that? I don't remember reading that......(scratching my head) Does this mean we can't vote either since were not allowed to ponder in political renderings???????????

american citizens have the bill of rights. those do not apply to you, at all, except where they happen to be duplicated in the UCMJ.

many of the articles are replicated in the UCMJ, but many are not (freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc). that is why you can be punished in ways that would (today) be deemed 'cruel and unusual' (and thus illegal, unconstitutional, etc) if done to an American Civilian. an example of that 'cruel and unusual' punishment would be 'hard labor.'

you knew the UCMJ existed when you signed the dotted line, and you had the option of reading it ahead of time. you chose not to. that is your fault.

LeaderOfMarines
11-11-2008, 03:53 AM
Sorry you can't see sarcasm in front of your face. Thus you sounding rediculous assuming that I didn't read the UCMJ before I enlisted..

kojack
11-11-2008, 01:03 PM
As a Military Police Officer, my responsibility is to enforce all rules and regulations aboard the base which I am currently stationed. On a day to day basis, whether in a patrol car, or standing as a sentry at one of the gates, I am exposed to military and non-military violations of these rules and regulations.

Many regulations Marines are ordered to abide by may seem trivial in nature. One of these regulations I would like to point out is the proper liberty attire policy outlined in MCO P10120.28. If you read the order, (which all NCO's and unit leaders should), it outlines exactly what is authorized and not authorized to wear while on liberty or leave as a United State's Marine.

Many Marines in this era are not too fond of property liberty attire regulations, and actively display this. Marines attempt to come aboard the base wearing jeans with tears and holes in them. Marines wear white t-shirts, wife-beaters, earrings, baggy trousers with no belt, base ball caps canted to the side, or have no shave. When this happens, if they have the means to correct themselves, such as putting on a different shirt, or a belt, or fixing their baseball cap, we'll generally let them off with a warning. If it's a violation that cannot be fixed there on the spot, the Marine is issued an MOR (Minor Offense Report), and ordered to report to his/her 1stSgt or SgtMaj. the following day to explain why they were dressed the way they were.

What is amazing about this process is watching the Marine's reaction to being reprimanded, or being asked in a professional manner to fix him/her-self. More times than not, the Marine cops an attitude, and looks at the Military Police like THEY are the ones that are wrong. This reaction is difficult to comprehend, since the example and teaching of proper liberty attire is introduced as early as boot camp, and then re-enforced by units and Marine Corps instillations once the Marines hit the fleet. Every Marine Corps instillation I've visited has posters with picture examples of improper liberty attire placed outside of Marine Corps exchanges and other establishments located on the base. One would think the message is getting out there, but is it?

This next part is probably going to open a can of worms, but it needs to be addressed. While standing with the other gate sentries on a night of duty, we engaged in a conversation about proper liberty attire. I personally brought up the issue of female Marines and their liberty attire. After discussing the issue, we realized that none of us really knew the property liberty attire policy or regulations for female Marines. On a continual basis we would see couples drive up to the gate, with the female passenger in the vehicle dressed in a very immodest or revealing manner. It would always surprise us to discover that she was a United States Marine. From our first impression, she could have been a dependent wife, or a girlfriend. In my personal opinion, there is something wrong with this. If a male Marine is able to be distinguished out in town as being a Marine by his haircut or his liberty attire (provided he's wearing proper liberty attire), why is it that a female Marine is not? Before the retaliation begins, I will give you a perfect example in regards to what I write.

The same night of our conversation, we had a female Gunnery Sergeant drive up to the gate. I asked her where she was coming from, and she informed me she was coming from a bar out in town. While talking to her, I couldn't help but notice her attire. She was wearing a tube top, and very short shorts with high heels. I couldn't help but think to myself, "There's no way she's a gunny." Instantly my respect for her as a woman and a Marine dropped. When asked if she knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines, or Marines in general, she became very offended, and explained to us that female Marines are different than male Marines. She said that male Marines are recognizable out in town because of our hair cuts, therefore, we should be held to a higher standard in regards to the way they dress. However, she explained that it's hard for people to spot a female Marine because there's really nothing that distinguishes her from any other female, and therefore, it really doesn't matter what they wear. She summed up her argument with, "I'm a Gunnery Sergeant. I've been in the Marine Corps for 14 years, so I'll wear whatever I want."

For the remainder of the night, every female Marine that drove through the gate, I would stop and ask them if they knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines. Some of them were dressed in ways that would make you blush, and others were dressed in a modest manner. Imagine my surprise when none of them knew.

After a bit of research, here's the conclusion: there is no liberty attire regulations for female Marines. There are simply proper liberty attire regulations for Marines. Here is an excerpt from the order:

"Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with the Marine Corps." MCO P10120.28 PAR 1005 CH 5 (a).

The important thing to remember here is that we are Marines. We set the standard for others to emulate. We are told on a continual basis that it doesn't matter whether we are male or female; we're all Marines. If this is the case, then we should all be held to the same standard, and that standard should be enforced. If a male Marine is recognized on liberty as being a Marine, there should be something that sets a female Marine apart from other females. We as NCO's and unit leaders need to understand the impact of we make when we choose to dress in an inappropriate manner. What happens when a junior Marine goes out to a club on liberty, and runs across his/her NCO or SNCO at the same club? What happens when he/she sees her/him dressed in a way that is sexually suggestive and immodest in nature? They will never look at that NCO or SNCO the same way, or with the same respect again, because they are seeing parts of their bodies that our usually covered in uniform.

In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar.

I'd have to disagree with the Gunnery Sergeant I mentioned earlier. Marines are Marines, Gunnery Sergeant. How long we have been in, the rank on our collar, and whether we are females or males does not change the fact there are rules in regulations which we are expected to abide by. Especially if we are in a leadership position where we are supposed to set the example for our junior Marines to emulate.
It's time to stand up for what is right NCOs. Even if it is unpopular. The Marine Corps is not a popularity contest. It's an fighting organization steeped in pride and tradition. We are living up to the legacy of those that have passed before us on the battlefront. Let's not lose that discipline and legacy back here in the garrison. Semper Fidelis.

I applaud your effort at attempting to maintain standards. The decay you're seeing didnt happen over night-it started a long time ago. Its sad that a female E7 dosent believe that her appearance and behavior in civilian clothes "matters" and that because she is a woman she can simply get "away with it". (Sort of similiar to a president elect who thinks because he is black making racist comments and attending a racist church is acceptable behavior also). Much of the double standards you are dealing with at the gate revolve around large numbers of women and the political correctness involved. I've been in units that were actually experiencing large numbers of females soldiers being assaulted and raped off-post but would still allow female soldiers to wear ANTHING off post(the commander would still constantly brag about "Soldier safety though)

Unfortunately, you will only continue to be disappointed as things grow worse in the country. You either have to learn to turn your head and ignore the hypocrisy or just walk away from active duty. I suggest the latter.

tvalks
11-11-2008, 02:49 PM
E4rumor in MCO P10120.28 where does it say that it is against regulations to wear jeans with holes and tears in them, white t-shirts, wife beaters, and baggy jeans, or having their baseball cap to the side with no belt while in CONUS?

Lone_NCO
11-12-2008, 01:31 PM
Are you serious? Usually you have something intelligent to say. But by asking that question you made me think twice.

Just saying I personally wouldnt say a Capt said something stupid to him...He's far out of our pay grade, and internet forum or not I try to respond tactfully, and respectfully, not because I fear reprecusion from him but because in my mind its the right thing to do. Guess i'm just a stupid Sgt though.

Lone_NCO
11-12-2008, 01:34 PM
Well since were all subject to the UCMJ, might as well go sign up for office hours on monday since I know you have broken several orders, maybe you just don't know which ones they are. You can always get a Marine with the one about only using the missionary position during sexual activity....but I break that one all the time and I'm proud of it. Just don't be one of those Marines who break the one's they want, and then are dick's about other ones.

Indeed sir, I am a rule breaker also. Throw the book at me!

notamotogrunt
11-12-2008, 11:57 PM
WHO CARES that he is a cpt. Hes a man just like you. You got something to say say it.

SSgtAllen3381
11-13-2008, 12:30 AM
E4rumor in MCO P10120.28 where does it say that it is against regulations to wear jeans with holes and tears in them, white t-shirts, wife beaters, and baggy jeans, or having their baseball cap to the side with no belt while in CONUS?


2. Within the United States



>Ch 5 a. Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with the Marine Corps. Revealing clothing (i.e. clothing that exposes midriff, the buttocks, excessive amounts of chest/cleavage) or items designed to be worn as undergarments (and worn exposed) are not authorized for civilian attire, while on or off duty. When wearing trousers with civilian attire, a belt must be worn (unless there are no belt loops). Trousers will be worn at the waist. Undergarments, when worn, will not be visible, except as when the undershirt is exposed in a manner similar to the service “C” uniform. Civilian attire, including undershirts, should be worn as appropriate to the occasion (i.e. bathing suit/bikini appropriate to the beach/pool but not to the Marine Corps Exchange). Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. No eccentricities of dress will be permitted. When onboard a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with established norms. MARADMIN 504/07 and MARADMIN 322/05


I post this, but I also use some common sense when and if I ever have to make corrections to Marines.

Lone_NCO
11-13-2008, 11:54 AM
2. Within the United States



>Ch 5 a. Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with the Marine Corps. Revealing clothing (i.e. clothing that exposes midriff, the buttocks, excessive amounts of chest/cleavage) or items designed to be worn as undergarments (and worn exposed) are not authorized for civilian attire, while on or off duty. When wearing trousers with civilian attire, a belt must be worn (unless there are no belt loops). Trousers will be worn at the waist. Undergarments, when worn, will not be visible, except as when the undershirt is exposed in a manner similar to the service “C” uniform. Civilian attire, including undershirts, should be worn as appropriate to the occasion (i.e. bathing suit/bikini appropriate to the beach/pool but not to the Marine Corps Exchange). Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. No eccentricities of dress will be permitted. When onboard a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with established norms. MARADMIN 504/07 and MARADMIN 322/05


I post this, but I also use some common sense when and if I ever have to make corrections to Marines.

That actually doesnt say anything about my clothes being big. It just states pants have to be on your waist and you have to have on a belt (well thats all that effects me). Guess im not as far off as I thought. Still had the old regs in my head. Thanks SSgt

Lone_NCO
11-13-2008, 11:59 AM
WHO CARES that he is a cpt. Hes a man just like you. You got something to say say it.

You should already know i'm going to say what I want, but instead of saying thats the stupiest F@$kin thing I ever heard! I'd say "I disagree, this is why". I just said that because the Cpl was acting like he never broke a rule or reg before.

KnoxRJ
11-13-2008, 01:23 PM
As Col McCoy said, as he and his men were pushing forward in the first wave of attacks in Iraq in 2003, "Marines need leaders, not friends and as soon as you fail to make a correction you have set a new and lower standard in the Corps." So just because you may have gotten in trouble for, or even gotten away with, breaking a rule or regulation that does not mean you turn a blind eye to violators. You police yourself and your fellow Marine and keep the Marine standard.

CplH5811
11-13-2008, 08:09 PM
WHO CARES that he is a cpt. Hes a man just like you. You got something to say say it.

The world truly is coming to an end. No offense but, this is the first time that I agree with you.

CplH5811
11-13-2008, 08:11 PM
You should already know i'm going to say what I want, but instead of saying thats the stupiest F@$kin thing I ever heard! I'd say "I disagree, this is why". I just said that because the Cpl was acting like he never broke a rule or reg before.

I looked over the forum and I couldn't find a single line in there that said anything close to that. I am not better than anyone else when it comes to the rules. I don't follow every single one to the letter. However, I do my best to stay within the confines of those rules. I just don't like people that willfully ignore them because it isn't "cool".

CrimLaw
11-14-2008, 01:03 AM
How 'bout the bottom line is this: guys, wear a decent pair of pants, don't sag them past your butt (because that is just so not cute, trust me) and wear a nice shirt, and girls, don't dress like hookers. When I was in Korea, you could tell who the classy girls were and who were the easy ones just by what they wore. The guys that dressed nicely got more attention from the girls. To E4Rumor, I say the next time you see a girl dressed rather skankish (and make sure it is skankish, not just showing a little leg, okay?) just stop her and say that you don't allow prostitutes on base. If she gets really offended, just apologize and say you know that a Marine would never dress like that, so you could only assume....

Sgt Admin
11-14-2008, 11:39 AM
Well, if people followed the rules in the first place, we wouldn't have to worry about enforcing the regulations so bad and focs on more important things on the bases. Not to say that all we do is look for Sgt Johnson not wearing his dog tags or a belt. It's just that it does come up when we're patroling and since that's the only infraction that we are seeing at the time, we enforce it. If we didn't, all of you complaining that we are being jerks about it would be asking why we aren't doing our jobs. Just get used to the fact that we are here to enforce regulations. If you dress appropriately, don't worry about anything. If you CHOOSE to, be prepared to catch some flak about it.

While I don't usually agree with MP's... I do agree with this one. The only ones crying about things, are the guilty ones not following the rules.

kojack
11-14-2008, 12:30 PM
How 'bout the bottom line is this: guys, wear a decent pair of pants, don't sag them past your butt (because that is just so not cute, trust me) and wear a nice shirt, and girls, don't dress like hookers. When I was in Korea, you could tell who the classy girls were and who were the easy ones just by what they wore. The guys that dressed nicely got more attention from the girls. To E4Rumor, I say the next time you see a girl dressed rather skankish (and make sure it is skankish, not just showing a little leg, okay?) just stop her and say that you don't allow prostitutes on base. If she gets really offended, just apologize and say you know that a Marine would never dress like that, so you could only assume....


I agree with your post 100% but the problem would be is that if the military did what you wrote, we would not be "celebrating diversity"

Flip
11-14-2008, 08:49 PM
You can tell he has never deployed and has nothing better to do than stand at a gate and instead of making sure terrorists etc don't get on base and drunk drivers are caught, he wants to write paperwork on Marines for stupid shit. Glad to know what MPs at the gate really care about.
He does need a couple deployments under his belt, he is the boot.
The no sleeve tattoo rule is stupid as hell and I won't be in long enough to see if they do end up changing it. I am out of here in 6 months


Yeah. I have an opinon on this because I've been in the Marine Corps long enough to be irritated to death with boots like you who don't know the first thing about operational readiness, and have the sack to stand at the gate and tell my Marines that you are going to write them up for having their hat backwards.

I'm older and far senior to you, so that card fell short. And I didn't use webbed belt twice.

My point is, you need to relax. Bad. Do a couple of deployments, and you will see how trivial proper libery attire is. It has always been something that has been a waste of time, and hopefully once the prohibition on sleeve tattoos lifts, we will see the liberty attire relax. Playing the "we'll be just like the Army lol" card is pretty lame too, hate to break it to you but our mission and theirs isn't all that different these days. Our success is because of our training and operational focus that is above theirs, not because we don't let Lance Coolies wear sideburns.

Until then, I'll be in board shorts and sandals at the grocery store, and I'll wear a hat backwards this weekend just for you...OH NO!


"In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar. "

So Cpl, your telling me that you wear church clothes to the club? Well, have fun with that buddy because if thats the case then yes, you do wear khaki shorts, polo shirts and mandals. BOOT.

Ok I think that a lot of the policies that we adhere to are ridiculous, but thats why I try and change them instead of complaining about them, with that said I agree with the Original Post in certain areas such as a rule is a rule. We dont choose which one to follow and throw the rest off to the side if I'm not happy with it. We are to enforce every policy no matter how small it is. I am deployed and have been for some time so don't try telling me to get a couple deps under my belt, I know how these little things effect the big picture. I.E. There is a policy on many forwardly deployed bases saying your weapon should never be carried on your back (not in those words obviously), but I have to correct people all the time for this, why you ak? Because we allow it to happen because there is no threat most of the time, but imagine if we come under attack which is likely how quick is the response time trying to get your weapon into a useable position. Another example is the Weapon condition on mot bases within the wire i con 4, so why are people inerting magazines, I had a bullet come threw my window because some jerk can't obey such a simple rule. We enforce all the rule no matter how small that why we are elite. Stop complaining about PMO writing up some poor Lance Corporal and focus on why was he getting writtenn in the first place, I'm not saying charge everyone for every little thing otherwise we would lose half our fighting force, but do enforce. Complacency Kills.

tvalks
11-14-2008, 09:06 PM
SSGT Allen, E4Rumor, Is MCO P10120.28G the right order to be quoting i thought Uniform regulations was MCO P1020.34G. In the official order there are no parenthesis saying any of those items are against regulations.

magoo
11-14-2008, 09:58 PM
E4Rumor,
i'm glad you brought this up. this has been a topic since i was a private (1990). the civilian attire order was written in the 50's or so, and it reflects conservative ideas. if enough marines formally request a "revisit of the order", it's possible to get it "updated" to a more current, but conservative nature. you don't fix something by breaking the rules, you discuss it like adults and accept the outcome.

those of you riding the mp's asses,
they're just doing their jobs, as was stated earlier. i don't always like it when i have a deficiency pointed out, nobody does. but that's the way things are. quit crying, put on your big-boy pants and deal with it. they have a job to do, just like any other marine, they just happen to catch more grief from everyone else.

ChiefAD
11-14-2008, 11:09 PM
the military will always be a organization with conservative attire and attitudes even though things have changed dramatically. from lax tattoo standards to common practice of ear rings by male marines. yes, things have changed but that doesnt mean its right or better or we just have to accept the changing of the times. the clean cut look will be always attached to the military and if leaders are expected to adhere to a standard and enforce it; then it should obviously trickle down naturally without backlash.

SSgtAllen3381
11-15-2008, 07:57 AM
SSGT Allen, E4Rumor, Is MCO P10120.28G the right order to be quoting i thought Uniform regulations was MCO P1020.34G. In the official order there are no parenthesis saying any of those items are against regulations.

I don't remember saying 28G was the order, and it's not. I cut/paste the paragraph with the explanation in a post the other day. You are right, it is 34G and while it doesn't exactly say the items are against regs, but if you read it again, it points out that what you are too look like and what to do with undergarments. "Wife Beaters" are undergarments and shouldn't be worn alone. Pants should be worn around the waist, the big baggy jeans Marines are wearing now are not "around the waist". If someone can see you boxers or underwear...the pants are too big.

But, here is another thing to consider and check out.

"Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy."

Rawr
11-16-2008, 08:31 PM
the whole 'proper libo attire' thing is just a game Marines play while in garrison for the fuck of it.

it is absolutely meaningless, and accomplishes nothing. learn 2 opsec.

justification:

If, while on liberty, random people (to include terrorists, etc) can easily tell you are a Marine, then you are failing at ORM and/or OPSEC. that moto USMC collared shirt needs to be thrown away, as does yelling "ooh-rah" at the bar in Jacksonville and/or Oceanside, as does going to the bar out in town with 5 other guys wearing high and tights. instead, e-clubs and Single Marine Program rec centers on base need to serve booze and have strippers.

If they ('they', in this case, includes MPs at the gate. "No, my wife is a Marine and I am her dependent. Have a nice day, Marine.") cannot tell you are a Marine, then what you are wearing is irrelevant, as it does not reflect upon our Corps at all.

USMC_8156
11-16-2008, 09:36 PM
Hahaha. Spoken like a true MSG. You don't really understand this lesson until you are in a bar in a -stan with some motard with a high and tight wondering which one of the locals is going to stab you, and which one is going to grab your wallet while you bleed out.

MACHINE666
11-17-2008, 10:28 AM
I say let everyone grow mullets so then they can blend in better with their surroundings!

:D :D :D :D :D

Besides don't most people who enlist have high school photos of them wearing those awful haircuts at one time or another? Kinda like the tuxedo on prom night and Air Jordans, it's something everybody's done but nobody is willing to admit to....like uniform violations.

You guys crack me up.

SSgtAllen3381
11-17-2008, 10:41 AM
I say let everyone grow mullets so then they can blend in better with their surroundings!

:D :D :D :D :D

Besides don't most people who enlist have high school photos of them wearing those awful haircuts at one time or another? Kinda like the tuxedo on prom night and Air Jordans, it's something everybody's done but nobody is willing to admit to....like uniform violations.

You guys crack me up.

HEY!!!! I resent that remark.

I have never owned a pair of Air Jordans. :)

Flip
11-17-2008, 10:14 PM
I say let everyone grow mullets so then they can blend in better with their surroundings!

:D :D :D :D :D

Besides don't most people who enlist have high school photos of them wearing those awful haircuts at one time or another? Kinda like the tuxedo on prom night and Air Jordans, it's something everybody's done but nobody is willing to admit to....like uniform violations.

You guys crack me up.

YEAH AND MY MULLET is 0-3 in reg. ( i just say I'm balding inthe othe places. LOL. (Not really just Joking)

CplH5811
11-18-2008, 07:57 PM
the whole 'proper libo attire' thing is just a game Marines play while in garrison for the fuck of it.

it is absolutely meaningless, and accomplishes nothing. learn 2 opsec.

justification:

If, while on liberty, random people (to include terrorists, etc) can easily tell you are a Marine, then you are failing at ORM and/or OPSEC. that moto USMC collared shirt needs to be thrown away, as does yelling "ooh-rah" at the bar in Jacksonville and/or Oceanside, as does going to the bar out in town with 5 other guys wearing high and tights. instead, e-clubs and Single Marine Program rec centers on base need to serve booze and have strippers.

If they ('they', in this case, includes MPs at the gate. "No, my wife is a Marine and I am her dependent. Have a nice day, Marine.") cannot tell you are a Marine, then what you are wearing is irrelevant, as it does not reflect upon our Corps at all.

I see where you are coming from and I agree. But the problem is, right now we have regulations that go against the whole "terrorism awareness" thing. They tell us not to look like Marines but make the libo policies to contradict that. In my opinion, "terrorism awareness" only applies when you are maintaining vigilance and adding the crap about clothing is just to take up space and make us feel better. Which isn't working.

Now, any MP that I have ever worked with on the gates, if they see someone coming through the gate that slightly resembles a Marine, they check their ID. In case you didn't know, dependant and active military ID's are completely different. Now, with females (which is the reason that this whole thread was started) it is significantly harder to know if they're a Marine in the first place.

Rawr
11-19-2008, 06:25 AM
I see where you are coming from and I agree. But the problem is, right now we have regulations that go against the whole "terrorism awareness" thing. They tell us not to look like Marines but make the libo policies to contradict that. In my opinion, "terrorism awareness" only applies when you are maintaining vigilance and adding the crap about clothing is just to take up space and make us feel better. Which isn't working.

if one set of policies and doctrine contradicts another set, who am i to know which to follow? ill just pick the one that will keep me the safest... the alternate solution is for our policies not to contradict themselves.


Now, any MP that I have ever worked with on the gates, if they see someone coming through the gate that slightly resembles a Marine, they check their ID. In case you didn't know, dependant and active military ID's are completely different. Now, with females (which is the reason that this whole thread was started) it is significantly harder to know if they're a Marine in the first place.

you dont need a military id to get on most bases... hell, quantico has an entire civilian town on base and the only way to get to it is through the base gates.

if you choose to wear a blow-me-up-please-and-discriminate-against-me-for-being-a-"baby killer" sticker on the windshield of your car, then i really have no sympathy for you:

you weighed the convinence of getting past the gate guards quicker (having a sticker) against the convinence of not being easily identified as a serviceman except when you choose to identify yourself as such (no sticker) and chose the former. ill stick with the latter, thanks.

MPCpl
11-19-2008, 11:52 AM
I have worked the gates before and have never had to write a MOR. I have corrected plenty of Marines making them feel like shitbags. It all depends on the situation though. If its a repeat situation where your corrections go unheeded, at some point the MOR is definitely a must. Even with so many Marines coming on the bases, your work so many hours every week, you can still recognize them.

I always chose to handle things at the lowest level. Even if it would have been easier writing the MOR, its best just to get up with his NCO leadership and let them know wtf their Marine is doing. These were for small corrections though, nothing like earring being worn. If a Marine has piercings or something of a permanent nature I would definitely write them up on it.

One time I had a Marine all jacked up trying to get on the base and had his NCO come down and take him back to his barracks. I had givin that Marine NCO the option of either 1. getting his Marine or 2. etting him get a MOR. And we all know how everyone feels about their libo time.

*I really think a SNCO should write the Uniform and Regulations board about better guidelines for Female marines in civilian attire. They do represent the Marine Corps just as much as any Male Marine so they should have just as stringent guidelines. This is not a case of them not being physically incapable of doing so like pullups, its a case of proper civlian attire and it SHOULD be addressed

notamotogrunt
11-19-2008, 03:26 PM
OH NOOOOO earings. Why do you care. Look at the sticker and wave um on. THats all you have to do.

USMC_8156
11-19-2008, 04:00 PM
OH NOOOOO earings. Why do you care. Look at the sticker and wave um on. THats all you have to do.

Holy shit...I agree...

How about the MP's focus on force protection, mmmkaay?

CplH5811
11-19-2008, 07:31 PM
Holy shit...I agree...

How about the MP's focus on force protection, mmmkaay?

Force protection only goes so far. particularly when we have so few people in the garrison side of our MOS because HQMC is focusing more on sending them to field units. However, once we have all of our FP stuff in place, there's still other rules for us to enforce. So, quit crying about it, put on your big boy pants, and grow up. Just accept the fact that you have to dress a little bit nicer than you ever would probably.

CplH5811
11-19-2008, 07:35 PM
I have worked the gates before and have never had to write a MOR. I have corrected plenty of Marines making them feel like shitbags. It all depends on the situation though. If its a repeat situation where your corrections go unheeded, at some point the MOR is definitely a must. Even with so many Marines coming on the bases, your work so many hours every week, you can still recognize them.

I always chose to handle things at the lowest level. Even if it would have been easier writing the MOR, its best just to get up with his NCO leadership and let them know wtf their Marine is doing. These were for small corrections though, nothing like earring being worn. If a Marine has piercings or something of a permanent nature I would definitely write them up on it.

One time I had a Marine all jacked up trying to get on the base and had his NCO come down and take him back to his barracks. I had givin that Marine NCO the option of either 1. getting his Marine or 2. etting him get a MOR. And we all know how everyone feels about their libo time.

*I really think a SNCO should write the Uniform and Regulations board about better guidelines for Female marines in civilian attire. They do represent the Marine Corps just as much as any Male Marine so they should have just as stringent guidelines. This is not a case of them not being physically incapable of doing so like pullups, its a case of proper civlian attire and it SHOULD be addressed

Honestly, I am the same way. I would much rather just let their unit deal with them than do paperwork. Not a big fan of it really. But, if it comes down to it, I would do paperwork all day on some idiot that did a whole bunch of crap and doesn't know how to shut his mouth. But, I don't just jump to paperwork because I see something wrong.

ExTanker0211
11-19-2008, 08:10 PM
I have to start off by saying I have zero respect for military police Marines. This stemmed from a situation that occured at the front gate of Pendleton. I was in the back of my friends car one night coming through the gate with my wife sitting next to me. We were a little drunk and when our id cards were checked the f*ggot mp kid yelled to my wife through the window "hey blondie" and then asked her to put her seat belt on the right way. Now I have to say that no matter who it is... nobody talks to my wife that way. Had I not been drunk I probably would have beaten the living shit out of him. So that put a sour taste in my mouth as far as MPs. The bottom line is, here is this e4 kid on here talking about how moto he is to yell at people for wearing comfortable clothing while at the same time there are boot shitheads standing around the front gate at odd hours of the night horse-playing and disrespecting dependants.

And I like what some other guy on here wrote about the "text book hand gesture" that shit really gets me- how cool do you guys think you really are? come on! you are not even close to being police officers. I have known some guys who were Fap'd out to the mps as gate sentries, they loved it because they were in a position in which they could help people out, by not acting like motards to every passing motorist. Seriously boot e4, how many times have you deployed since being in the Marines? probably not once, or maybe once serving on a nice base like Al Asad the whole time drinking greenbeen coffee and eating BurgerKing all day.

Orders are orders. They are there for a reason, I agree with whoever said that. Some rules and regs dont have to be followed to the T every stinking day. I wear board shorts, t shrits and flipflops everyday when Im off and I dont shave except for weekdays. So anyways take care and I look forward to hearing back from you.

CplH5811
11-19-2008, 08:55 PM
It sucks that you are basing your view of MP's off of one shitbag. We have them too. Hell, I could base my opinion of any other MOS by the people that I deal with, but I don't. Even though there are a bunch of thieves, rapists, wife beaters and liars in every MOS, I don't let that affect my views. But, that is no excuse for what happened.

I for one don't see us as actual law enforcement. Whenever one of my Marines starts to get all high and mighty about being "in power" I remind them that we are about two steps above mall security. And I don't remember anything that ever stated that deployments make you a real Marine. Some of us just happen to get screwed. My parent command is actually a deploying unit and I have been volunteering forever to go but, for some reason they won't. That's not the point though. It's the fact that just because you have one or 20 deployments under your belt, you're no better than someone who hasn't deployed.

Final Point: Although I agree that there are rules in place for a reason, I don't follow them all the time either. It's not hypocracy, it's just acknowledging that there are some things that shouldn't be in effect. I don't recall who said it on here but just choosing the rules that you want in order to help you out is not the way to go. What you have to go by is which is the senior rule. Just because they talk about terrorism awareness doesn't mean dress like a freaking clown so that you don't look like a Marine out in town. By dressing in clothes ten times your size or crazy colors, you actually point yourself out more.

Flip
11-19-2008, 08:59 PM
I have to start off by saying I have zero respect for military police Marines. This stemmed from a situation that occured at the front gate of Pendleton. I was in the back of my friends car one night coming through the gate with my wife sitting next to me. We were a little drunk and when our id cards were checked the f*ggot mp kid yelled to my wife through the window "hey blondie" and then asked her to put her seat belt on the right way. Now I have to say that no matter who it is... nobody talks to my wife that way. Had I not been drunk I probably would have beaten the living shit out of him. So that put a sour taste in my mouth as far as MPs. The bottom line is, here is this e4 kid on here talking about how moto he is to yell at people for wearing comfortable clothing while at the same time there are boot shitheads standing around the front gate at odd hours of the night horse-playing and disrespecting dependants.

And I like what some other guy on here wrote about the "text book hand gesture" that shit really gets me- how cool do you guys think you really are? come on! you are not even close to being police officers. I have known some guys who were Fap'd out to the mps as gate sentries, they loved it because they were in a position in which they could help people out, by not acting like motards to every passing motorist. Seriously boot e4, how many times have you deployed since being in the Marines? probably not once, or maybe once serving on a nice base like Al Asad the whole time drinking greenbeen coffee and eating BurgerKing all day.

Orders are orders. They are there for a reason, I agree with whoever said that. Some rules and regs dont have to be followed to the T every stinking day. I wear board shorts, t shrits and flipflops everyday when Im off and I dont shave except for weekdays. So anyways take care and I look forward to hearing back from you.


I respect your perspective, there are some upsetting views mentioned though. I can't believe you are calling people boots repeatedly because you sound like someone with a good head on their shoulders. I disagree completely with your attitude towards all PMO because of the actions of one "D D Dee". I am well aware that every rule is not followed to the T everyday, I have been known to break a few myself, but I do get mad at people who get an attitude towards people who are simply trying to correct someone for breaking one of those rules. How dare you be mad at someone for doing whats right, obviously I feel you on that whole wife thing, but here is a question....DID YOU REPORT IT?...If not why not, If yes job well done expect that offender to learn from their mistake, also good job not hitting him...who knows what I would have done especially after drinking.

E4RUMOR
11-19-2008, 11:13 PM
WOW! Obviously this topic has hit a sore nerve with some people. To be completely honest, I'm surprised that this thread has lasted this long!
I've been reviewing all the answers that many of you have been posting during the last couple of weeks, and I've kept my distance to so that I can simply observe.
We've managed to branch off into different topics within the original topic. This is simply the inability to keep a focused mind on the matter at hand. If you want to post a comment about who is a better Marine based on whether or not they deployed, there is another thread in this forum dedicated to that very subject.
Furthermore, I have also taken note of the fact that I have been consistently referred to as being a boot. I can only say a couple of things about that:
1. Every Marine in the the Marine Corps is boot to someone else, and
2. What is the definition of a boot?
I have the time, but I do not have the inclination to justify myself to you about what I have done and where I have been in my career. I have already made a post in this thread regarding the matter, and it would behoove you to read the entire Thread if you want to make a logical, sound argument or accusation. By not doing so, you make yourself look ignorant to the one you are accusing. Gather all of the facts first.
My identity has been compromised, but of my own free will. This very subject has been published in the latest edition of the Marine Corps Times. I expect, especially after reading through this thread, to receive alot of flak from not only members of this site, but also Marines from the base. For this, I look to the individuals that encouraged me to stand my ground, and continue to do my job.
For the rest of you. Change is always possible. If you don't like the current liberty attire policy, why don't you take the steps to get it changed? It only takes a spark to get a fire going. This thread is the perfect example of that. We've seen our uniforms go through changes. We've seen the role of female Marines in the Marine Corps change, we've seen our weapons change.... These changes have had a much larger impact on our fighting organization. If those can change, then the policies we as a collective do not approve of, or find trivial can change as well.
Believe it or not, you do have a voice in the Marine Corps. Your commands come to you as SNCOs and NCOs asking for advice and ways that we can improve the Corps. The Commandant of the Marine Corps, and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps always ask if there are any issues that need to be brought to their attention. For those of you that find it trivial, and seem to be so upset about it, and find it has nothing to do with Operational readiness, then have the cojones to bring it up. See what their opinion is on it. Furthermore, ask your unit leaders their opinion on the matter. If they agree with you that it's foolish, and needs to be changed or revised, ask for their support when pushing the matter up to individual high enough to make the changes.
In the meantime, I'll be that professional military policeman on the gate, or in the car, doing the job the Marine Corps trained me to do, and following the oders and directives that MY chain of command expects from me, enforcing the current liberty attire policy and other regulations. See you folks there. Semper Fi :eek:

CplH5811
11-19-2008, 11:19 PM
WOW! Obviously this topic has hit a sore nerve with some people. To be completely honest, I'm surprised that this thread has lasted this long!
I've been reviewing all the answers that many of you have been posting during the last couple of weeks, and I've kept my distance to so that I can simply observe.
We've managed to branch off into different topics within the original topic. This is simply the inability to keep a focused mind on the matter at hand. If you want to post a comment about who is a better Marine based on whether or not they deployed, there is another thread in this forum dedicated to that very subject.
Furthermore, I have also taken note of the fact that I have been consistently referred to as being a boot. I can only say a couple of things about that:
1. Every Marine in the the Marine Corps is boot to someone else, and
2. What is the definition of a boot?
I have the time, but I do not have the inclination to justify myself to you about what I have done and where I have been in my career. I have already made a post in this thread regarding the matter, and it would behoove you to read the entire Thread if you want to make a logical, sound argument or accusation. By not doing so, you make yourself look ignorant to the one you are accusing. Gather all of the facts first.
My identity has been compromised, but of my own free will. This very subject has been published in the latest edition of the Marine Corps Times. I expect, especially after reading through this thread, to receive alot of flak from not only members of this site, but also Marines from the base. For this, I look to the individuals that encouraged me to stand my ground, and continue to do my job.
For the rest of you. Change is always possible. If you don't like the current liberty attire policy, why don't you take the steps to get it changed? It only takes a spark to get a fire going. This thread is the perfect example of that. We've seen our uniforms go through changes. We've seen the role of female Marines in the Marine Corps change, we've seen our weapons change.... These changes have had a much larger impact on our fighting organization. If those can change, then the policies we as a collective do not approve of, or find trivial can change as well.
Believe it or not, you do have a voice in the Marine Corps. Your commands come to you as SNCOs and NCOs asking for advice and ways that we can improve the Corps. The Commandant of the Marine Corps, and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps always ask if there are any issues that need to be brought to their attention. For those of you that find it trivial, and seem to be so upset about it, and find it has nothing to do with Operational readiness, then have the cojones to bring it up. See what their opinion is on it. Furthermore, ask your unit leaders their opinion on the matter. If they agree with you that it's foolish, and needs to be changed or revised, ask for their support when pushing the matter up to individual high enough to make the changes.
In the meantime, I'll be that professional military policeman on the gate, or in the car, doing the job the Marine Corps trained me to do, and following the oders and directives that MY chain of command expects from me, enforcing the current liberty attire policy and other regulations. See you folks there. Semper Fi :eek:

I hate to be the one to tell you this but, the whole "boot battle" always shows up in every topic somehow. That's just the way of life.

But, Everything else made sense. I hope that everything else works out for you though. You were in the right, that's all that matters.

E4RUMOR
11-19-2008, 11:25 PM
Yep. There's a Thread for the definiton of BOOT now.

Bleedblue
11-19-2008, 11:41 PM
Most cops are jerks.....get a life.
you join the Military...you dont become a Unick, whats wrong with being a little sexy off duty.

CplH5811
11-20-2008, 01:09 AM
Most cops are jerks.....get a life.
you join the Military...you dont become a Unick, whats wrong with being a little sexy off duty.

There's a significant difference between "a little sexy" and a tube top and short shorts. Next time you just jump into a thread, read the initial post at least.

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 01:12 AM
I did....some of you people act like we don't have sexual organs and were not men and women, get over yourselves.....better to see that than some fat ass dumped into a uniform with seams teraing......

CplH5811
11-20-2008, 01:27 AM
It's not about sexual organs or anything of the sort. It's about adhering to rules that you accepted when you signed up. There is absolutely not wrong with a woman wanting to show off her body, I encourage it, but the ones that are doing it are not in the military. If they are, they are wrong.

Also, do you think before you type? What the hell does a fat ass in a unfit uniform have to do with proper civilian attire?

SSgtAllen3381
11-20-2008, 01:30 AM
This very subject has been published in the latest edition of the Marine Corps Times.:

There is an article about Liberty Attire in the MCT???

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 01:34 AM
well, I have been known to think sometimes,
Here is my point....I was at Lackland when the Female MTI posed for playboy and everyone went apeshit...they sell it at the BX !!!! for God sake ! we get all tiisy about a good looking woman in Uniform....I wish we would get the same emotion for all the dummpy slugs out there....I am more pissed when I see a fatty wearing my uniform then a woman that might need an icnh longer shorts.

CplH5811
11-20-2008, 01:38 AM
Ok, I see your point........ I think. I'm just trying to figure out the relevance to the topic at hand. What does an overweight service member have to do with people not wearing proper civilian attire?

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 01:43 AM
Ok, I see your point........ I think. I'm just trying to figure out the relevance to the topic at hand. What does an overweight service member have to do with people not wearing proper civilian attire?
was a nipple showing ? were pubic hair exposed ?
point being... if it makes some people uneasy its propbably because they want their wife or themselves to look like that.

CplH5811
11-20-2008, 01:45 AM
Ok I even asked a second time and still you have not answered my question. Instead, you choose to bring up eronious questions and ignorant blather. I think you really just need to focus more on your obsession with naked people first. And no, it's not that I am uneasy with seeing people naked. It's about professionalism. It's a big part of my job and just the way I carry myself in general.

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 01:46 AM
Ok I even asked a second time and still you have not answered my question. Instead, you choose to bring up eronious questions and ignorant blather. I think you really just need to focus more on your obsession with naked people first. And no, it's not that I am uneasy with seeing people naked. It's about professionalism. It's a big part of my job and just the way I carry myself in general.
who decides whats "professional" You ?

CplH5811
11-20-2008, 01:51 AM
For my personal life, yes. But at work and in the Marine Corps in general, I believe that falls under the Commandant and/or HQMC. You know, the people in charge of the rules and regs. Yeah, those guys. They're the ones that tell us what looks professional and what doesn't.

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 01:52 AM
ok....well I have my opinion, you have yours. We all need company men.

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 01:56 AM
Besides....were going to judge a female on how their dressed ?
How about I judge Marine's by the large number of assholes I have met that were Marines but looked sharp with their Blood stripe.

CplH5811
11-20-2008, 02:01 AM
I don't recall ever claiming that it's only females. Take a look at some of my other posts. I put males responsible as well. But again, you're bringing in pointless information. Marines are already looked at as assholes by just about anyone that has only had one experience with an individual one at a time. The fact that they look good in their blues holds no merit on their attitude and demeanor. But, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, wouldn't that make it a duck?

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 02:08 AM
well, I get offended by your ball -roll out PT shorts.....nothing beat a good game of peek-a-boo during a grueling PT session.

CplH5811
11-20-2008, 02:58 AM
Haha! Well, it does at some difficulty to keeping your bearing.

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 03:00 AM
were laughing...its all good !
Now the Air Force has got us tucking in our PT shirts into our Blue Hooters girl shorts !

SSgtAllen3381
11-20-2008, 03:07 AM
well, I get offended by your ball -roll out PT shorts.....nothing beat a good game of peek-a-boo during a grueling PT session.

When was the last time you were around Marines wearing those? I'm not sure of the exact date, but those shorts shouldn't be worn anymore. Not with organized PT anyway. The green general purpose shorts should be worn.

We tuck our shirts in too. Back in '98 and '99, our old BN Mess Chief used to make us tuck in our sweatshirts in our sweatpants when we would PT. He was right off the Drill Field and was super Motivated. The shirts never stayed because he ran us like Hookers chasing Marines on Pay Day. He's a SgtMajor now out in Texas on I&I Duty..I wonder if he makes those guys tuck their stuff in? I may have to call him and ask him.

Bleedblue
11-20-2008, 03:09 AM
When was the last time you were around Marines wearing those? I'm not sure of the exact date, but those shorts shouldn't be worn anymore. Not with organized PT anyway. The green general purpose shorts should be worn.
2006-2007 in Korea

SSgtAllen3381
11-20-2008, 03:12 AM
2006-2007 in Korea

Damn...sorry you had to see that then.

ExTanker0211
11-21-2008, 03:05 PM
well, I have been known to think sometimes,
Here is my point....I was at Lackland when the Female MTI posed for playboy and everyone went apeshit...they sell it at the BX !!!! for God sake ! we get all tiisy about a good looking woman in Uniform....I wish we would get the same emotion for all the dummpy slugs out there....I am more pissed when I see a fatty wearing my uniform then a woman that might need an icnh longer shorts.


I like you views on things. I must say that I love seeing a good looking women in uniform, especially female Marines. I just dont get why a male MP would become frustrated because some older woman, a gunny, is sexy. Good for her, especially having done at least a few years in the Corps and enduring all the wear and tear we all go through...Keep it up gunny!!!

Flip
11-21-2008, 07:21 PM
I don't recall ever claiming that it's only females. Take a look at some of my other posts. I put males responsible as well. But again, you're bringing in pointless information. Marines are already looked at as assholes by just about anyone that has only had one experience with an individual one at a time. The fact that they look good in their blues holds no merit on their attitude and demeanor. But, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, wouldn't that make it a duck?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bleedblue;157851]well, I get offended by your ball -roll out PT shorts.....nothing beat a good game of peek-a-boo during a grueling PT session.

If you wanna wear short shorts a.k.a daisy dukes for PT then remember " if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, wouldn't that make it a duck?

Flip
11-21-2008, 07:33 PM
I did....some of you people act like we don't have sexual organs and were not men and women, get over yourselves.....better to see that than some fat ass dumped into a uniform with seams teraing......


Besides....were going to judge a female on how their dressed ?
How about I judge Marine's by the large number of assholes I have met that were Marines but looked sharp with their Blood stripe.

OK two points. One....You signed the contract If you don't like the rules get out or change them. and two Marines will look sharp its what we do as for being a-holes what do you expect from us we are not daddy daycare.

Bleedblue
11-21-2008, 09:14 PM
OK two points. One....You signed the contract If you don't like the rules get out or change them. and two Marines will look sharp its what we do as for being a-holes what do you expect from us we are not daddy daycare.
Thats always a bone heads answer."if you don't like it get out". Ever here of OPINIONS?
If I could change them I would, but I am just a Jr NCO....that means I carry food back to the Hive so to speak.
And I was conversing with the CPL not you.....
My point is....just because your in the Military dosent stop you from being a sexual creature. If she was against policy, call her on it. If your personnely offended, but she is in regs, shut your mouth and keep it to yourself. I think in the big picture of things, I am sure there are bigger issues to address.

Flip
11-21-2008, 10:07 PM
Thats always a bone heads answer."if you don't like it get out". Ever here of OPINIONS?
If I could change them I would, but I am just a Jr NCO....that means I carry food back to the Hive so to speak.
And I was conversing with the CPL not you.....
My point is....just because your in the Military dosent stop you from being a sexual creature. If she was against policy, call her on it. If your personnely offended, but she is in regs, shut your mouth and keep it to yourself. I think in the big picture of things, I am sure there are bigger issues to address.

Ok for someone so quick to say "Ever hear of OPINIONS?" you sure were quick to jump on someone with different opinions to your own. In any case Just get out...because if you don't know how to address a problem or even try to make changes it is my opinion that your not wanted. Follow the rules and if you don't like them have them addressed otherwise BYE.

Bleedblue
11-21-2008, 10:24 PM
Ok for someone so quick to say "Ever hear of OPINIONS?" you sure were quick to jump on someone with different opinions to your own. In any case Just get out...because if you don't know how to address a problem or even try to make changes it is my opinion that your not wanted. Follow the rules and if you don't like them have them addressed otherwise BYE.
get out and leave the Military to you....?.....I wouldnt be able to sleep at night,...no...no,...I need to stay.
As I remember.....you jumped on me first......I was just trying to get you off from humping my damn leg.....

Flip
11-22-2008, 02:52 AM
get out and leave the Military to you....?.....I wouldnt be able to sleep at night,...no...no,...I need to stay.
As I remember.....you jumped on me first......I was just trying to get you off from humping my damn leg.....

Ok cool, but lets move on...Do you really disagree with the Policy, if so why? Don't just say its out-dated thats obvious. Give me some solids to fight with. I'll run it up the chain for you. I feel it can be better than what it is now too. The only difference I see between you and myself is that I will follw the rules...well 9/10ths of the time rather I agree or not.

Bleedblue
11-22-2008, 02:55 AM
Ok cool, but lets move on...Do you really disagree with the Policy, if so why? Don't just say its out-dated thats obvious. Give me some solids to fight with. I'll run it up the chain for you. I feel it can be better than what it is now too. The only difference I see between you and myself is that I will follw the rules...well 9/10ths of the time rather I agree or not.
now....what proof do you have I don't follow rules. I enforce policy and standards. HOWEVER.... it dosent mean I agree with them.
do you have the policy to cut and paste here ?

CplH5811
11-23-2008, 07:11 PM
My point is....just because your in the Military dosent stop you from being a sexual creature. If she was against policy, call her on it. If your personnely offended, but she is in regs, shut your mouth and keep it to yourself. I think in the big picture of things, I am sure there are bigger issues to address.

There are bigger fish to fry. But the fact is that MP's can't always catch every bad guy. But, we do the little things that we can see when we do. I don't recall the originator of this thread to be offended personally by the Gunny's clothing. I could be wrong though.

50CalExtraordinaire
11-25-2008, 04:52 AM
It's late after reading this post, but all I know is that it was awesome having a whole bunch of fellow grunts I knew since SOI working the front gate during the last leg of my four year stint. Always got a wave and a salute!

Remember kids:

Step 1: Initiative
Step 2: Corporal

It's that easy.

CplH5811
11-25-2008, 05:00 AM
It should be easy enough to just trust initiative. But, it really isn't. I'm not the saltiest SOB out there but it just seems like most of the kids we get these days are so stupid and have no sense of initiative.

MPCpl
11-27-2008, 08:44 PM
most idiots are to ignorant to realize the MP's usually working the gate like on Pendleton are FAP's and if they DO so happen to be an MP and a cpl? They more than likely got sent for their last leg of their contract to PMO after multiple deployments in a field unit and PMO didn't want to spend the money getting their government license or training them up on how to properly do paperwork.

50CalExtraordinaire
11-27-2008, 10:02 PM
That just makes it that much easier for the rest of us to get on base. I understand libo (Because that's what it is, it's called libo) attire is very important to showing that we're all professional. It's not to hard to understand. I just don't understand why the car ride between where I was and where I am going has to be in proper clothing. I'm glad most of the FAPs are guys just like me and understand that getting some guy in trouble at 11 at night just isn't worth it for anyone involved. If he is drunk? Yeah, pull him over, do that police work.

Remember kids,
By uttering the magic words "Request Mass," time stops and the sky opens up. You become the most important person in the office for 15 minutes.

SSgtAllen3381
11-28-2008, 05:09 PM
. I just don't understand why the car ride between where I was and where I am going has to be in proper clothing.

Remember kids,
By uttering the magic words "Request Mass," time stops and the sky opens up. You become the most important person in the office for 15 minutes.

First, the "I don't understand..." comment. You are kidding right? Because, if you were out of regs in the car...it means you were out of regs where ever you were at. You didn't get screwed up sitting/driving in the car.

Second, it's Request Mast and it's there for a reason. A lot of Marines don't know what it means and how to use it. Just like your explanation...you obviously don't understand it and have never had to use it. I've never used it either, but took the time to read and learn about it. I suggest you do the same.

USMC_8156
11-28-2008, 05:40 PM
First, the "I don't understand..." comment. You are kidding right? Because, if you were out of regs in the car...it means you were out of regs where ever you were at. You didn't get screwed up sitting/driving in the car.

Second, it's Request Mast and it's there for a reason. A lot of Marines don't know what it means and how to use it. Just like your explanation...you obviously don't understand it and have never had to use it. I've never used it either, but took the time to read and learn about it. I suggest you do the same.

Using Request Mast like a threat has gotten more than one Marine in a lot of trouble. I almost used it one time to address the CO about a policy he had, but he sent word down the grapevine that the second coming wouldn't change his mind about it, so I never used it.

Don't be that guy who threatens hell and high water if he doesn't get his way at every opportunity...

SSgtAllen3381
11-28-2008, 10:26 PM
Using Request Mast like a threat has gotten more than one Marine in a lot of trouble. I almost used it one time to address the CO about a policy he had, but he sent word down the grapevine that the second coming wouldn't change his mind about it, so I never used it.

Don't be that guy who threatens hell and high water if he doesn't get his way at every opportunity...

I can understand that situation (even though not knowing all of it) and can see how you feel. I've heard numerous Marines say that RM wouldn't change anything. I simply said, "why not try and find out?"

With the publicity from the MGySgt RM a few months back, I'm sure the COs out there would think twice about "tossing it out". BUT, I know every situation is different out there. With you, you should have went through with your RM and seen where it came out. You could have also taken it further up the chain if necessary; I'm sure you know this and I'm not trying to insult your intelligence. You could have made a difference in your decision. You probably would have helped out a lot of Marines that didn't have the G2 or the Intestinal Fortitude to carry out there chance at it.

You are right about the threatening...especially for that one that has nothing to back it up with.

Thanks for the sensible post...:thumbup:

E4RUMOR
11-29-2008, 11:19 AM
So it's amazing. This thread has obviously elicited a varied amount of responses. When the issue got published in the letter section of the Marine Corps times, I half expected a response from people throughout the Corps, but I never thought individuals would get so pissed off that they would contact me on my government email account. Needless to say, a couple of people did.
The one that stood out to me was from a female Sergeant in the Corps. I don't know what her MOS is, and frankly, I wasn't concerned enough to find out. She got the impression that I didn't like female Marines, and that I had a problem with high-heels (never mind the rest of the outfit that was described). But the one line that stood out was the fact she said I had obviously never served with female Marines in a combat zone and wasn't able to see that they can perform the jobs in the combat zone as well as their male counterparts. Ok, I don't want to start that topic here in this thread, but can someone please clarify for me if I mentioned ANYTHING about the performance of female Marines in the combat zone? Does that have ANYTHING to do with what I wrote about? I don't think so... I think we clarified in here that the subject of combat deployments has NOTHING to do with the subject of this thread.
For the females that do get offended, I should point out that I am engaged to a female Marine who happens to be a Corporal as well. When she read what I wrote, she agreed with it, and went as far as to share it with the Marines that work for her... both female and male alike....

USMC_8156
11-29-2008, 11:39 AM
Ok, I don't want to start that topic here in this thread, but can someone please clarify for me if I mentioned ANYTHING about the performance of female Marines in the combat zone? Does that have ANYTHING to do with what I wrote about? I don't think so... I think we clarified in here that the subject of combat deployments has NOTHING to do with the subject of this thread.

You didn't say anything derogatory about female Marines. I may disagree with your post, but it was not offensive. Some people will get offended at the most ridiculous shit...just tell her to stay motivated and SF.

CplH5811
11-29-2008, 08:54 PM
First, the "I don't understand..." comment. You are kidding right? Because, if you were out of regs in the car...it means you were out of regs where ever you were at. You didn't get screwed up sitting/driving in the car.

Second, it's Request Mast and it's there for a reason. A lot of Marines don't know what it means and how to use it. Just like your explanation...you obviously don't understand it and have never had to use it. I've never used it either, but took the time to read and learn about it. I suggest you do the same.

Actually SSgt, this happens to me all the time. Jump in the car and my clothes grow 5 sizes and my hat refuses to stay on straight. haha.

SSgtAllen3381
12-01-2008, 06:08 AM
Actually SSgt, this happens to me all the time. Jump in the car and my clothes grow 5 sizes and my hat refuses to stay on straight. haha.

LOL...You could put the convertible top down, but I don't know what to tell you about the clothes though.

Rawr
12-01-2008, 07:13 AM
You are kidding right? Because, if you were out of regs in the car...it means you were out of regs where ever you were at. You didn't get screwed up sitting/driving in the car.

never been to the beach?

board shorts and flip flops is proper and appropriate attire for the beach.

hop out of the water, dry off for a few minutes, kick the sand out of your flip flops, hop in your car, go home. it's not a big deal, and its not the end of the world.

this is something normal people do that Marines, apparently, don't rate.

SSgtAllen3381
12-01-2008, 07:51 AM
never been to the beach?

board shorts and flip flops is proper and appropriate attire for the beach.

hop out of the water, dry off for a few minutes, kick the sand out of your flip flops, hop in your car, go home. it's not a big deal, and its not the end of the world.

this is something normal people do that Marines, apparently, don't rate.

Nope..never been to the beach. :eek:

While what you say is the truth about "beach attire" this thread is about coming through the gate is daisy dukes and tube tops. But, I like your sarcasm though.

Lone_NCO
12-02-2008, 01:14 PM
(Ok, been on leave for a couple weeks). I just wanted to remind everybody that we are the best branch because we have the best leadership and are the most disiplined(seriously, I worked with every other branch)...however I would also like to mention that we are the best because we are the most flexible as far as adapting to our situation (even if our situation is the year 2008 in this case). So I have to admit I was wrong for being so harsh on these MPs for trying to follow the rules, just had some bad personal experiences, however the rules should be revised by (no disrespect intended) a younger Marine/group of Marines. There are about a million things the Corps should be focused on as far as tradition that is no where near civilian attire, mess nights for example. Things to build unit cohesion (sp), and stregthen morale.

On a side note, I hate flip flops, but i'm not going to make a grown man or woman feel like a Shitbag for wearing something I dont like, because of a ridiculous rule. I think a good bit of discontent for MPs comes from how they talk to Marines because they're MPs same applies civilian police. Its taken me almost 5 yrs to understand, but as an NCO you need to learn when to drop the hammer and when sit down and talk.

CplH5811
12-03-2008, 06:30 AM
(Ok, been on leave for a couple weeks). I just wanted to remind everybody that we are the best branch because we have the best leadership and are the most disiplined(seriously, I worked with every other branch)...however I would also like to mention that we are the best because we are the most flexible as far as adapting to our situation (even if our situation is the year 2008 in this case). So I have to admit I was wrong for being so harsh on these MPs for trying to follow the rules, just had some bad personal experiences, however the rules should be revised by (no disrespect intended) a younger Marine/group of Marines. There are about a million things the Corps should be focused on as far as tradition that is no where near civilian attire, mess nights for example. Things to build unit cohesion (sp), and stregthen morale.

On a side note, I hate flip flops, but i'm not going to make a grown man or woman feel like a Shitbag for wearing something I dont like, because of a ridiculous rule. I think a good bit of discontent for MPs comes from how they talk to Marines because they're MPs same applies civilian police. Its taken me almost 5 yrs to understand, but as an NCO you need to learn when to drop the hammer and when sit down and talk.

I totally agree. As you said, the rules and reg's should be evaluated by junior Marines. However, I feel that there should be some input by 1 or 2 higher enlisted. This is because not all of us feel that XXL shirts and pants should be part of libo attire. But, there are certainly some things that need to be changed with the times.

Now, notamoto grunt. Do you know how many times I have had to deal with some retarded ass grunt who's drunk and thinks that he is so much better than just because he's an 03-whatever who hasn't even deployed yet? I don't either. The fact is, rules are there for a reason. Either quit crying about it or step up and get it changed.

notamotogrunt
12-04-2008, 11:10 AM
What stuff could you have possibly experienced that you are not "okay" with talking about. Get over you mellow dramatic bullshit. I DO NOT CARE that you were shot at once on base. I truly do not. One time....wooooooooowwwwww. The six year old thing yea that sucks. When it comes to the corps you still dont rate to be telling people off. Ive helped people in combat and back in the states. That kid who got killed in the drunk driving accident a couple weeks ago in jacksonville...guess what buddy I was the one who pulled out the driver of the vehicle, I just happened to be in that area of town. We couldnt reach the passenger and he died. Shit happens. So truly you have not done a fucking thing in the corps yet, maybe you will sometime in your 20 maybe you wont. Either way I dont give a damn cause I swear to god you wont get a fucking thing from me except a threat on your goddamn life if you tried to stop me, not cause youre a bad guy, but because you do not rate to be telling me I am jacked up, nor anyone else whos been there and done it. POGs and Grunts alike. YOU are a BOOT. KNOW YOUR ROLE.

Gunny08
12-04-2008, 04:27 PM
Hmmm. I guess you can say that Gen. Eisenhower was a 'Boot'. He had no 'combat' experience. This 'Boot' business is off-topic, but I could not resist.

SSgtAllen3381
12-04-2008, 09:50 PM
nota..

Come on now...you are taking this a little to far. I know you may have been frustrated...but this is not needed nor warranted in a forum. Or anywhere for that matter.

Born Invincible
12-06-2008, 12:05 AM
In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar."

i wouldn't wear my dress blues to the chow hall...

-devil's advocate

owens2023
12-06-2008, 12:44 AM
Remember, any Marine can be wrong regardless of rank. Any Marine can correct a wrong Marine, its just a matter of how you do it.

I completely agree with this statement.


Originally Posted by notamotogrunt
This is the one place where a man in the corps can voice his opinion directly and honestly without running the risk of someone getting butthurt and going into marine mode if they should happen to outrank the individual whom the disagreement falls. You know I am right. 90 percent of marines, if they are embarrassed or proven wrong or shown up by a marine of a jr paygrade get butthurt and try and pull rank. you cant do that shit here son.

Yes, notamotogrunt, If you know someone to be of a higher rank and you are disrespectful to them on here, you can get in trouble. That's how the Marine Corps works. Sure, it wouldn't be much but you still can.

CplH5811
12-12-2008, 03:16 AM
Is it just me or did a lot of stuff on this thread disappear?

SSgtAllen3381
12-13-2008, 09:59 AM
Not as far as I can tell. Nota is still here.

CSBurns
12-13-2008, 03:38 PM
Some things did get deleted on this thread. It has happened before.

CplH5811
12-15-2008, 09:03 PM
Not as far as I can tell. Nota is still here.

Haha!!! I was thinking more along the lines of things we might miss.

notamotogrunt
12-23-2008, 11:49 PM
Well I dont know for a fact that anyone is any rank that they say they are on here so I will get in no trouble. Look CPL5811 you guys miss enough in your job to be worried about missing me. The things that go on on base are a riot cause you guys just dont know. But then you try and be all tommy tuff nutts at the gate. Start worrying about the dude driving around smoking out or bumping lines in their rooms. Not wether the guy has a shave or not and how good your new high and tarded looks. boot

CplH5811
12-25-2008, 07:04 AM
Well, I would have to agree with you. But, we're not allowed to go door to door finding out who's smoking dope or snorting a line of coke off a hookers ass in their barracks room. However, the stuff we do see, we fix because it's there in our face. And, if the MP's busting you on a shave, either he's the one on the power trip or you pissed him off. That's the truth of the fact. Don't assume that we're all that way. That's just ignorant. So, try to just say as little as possible when dealing with them but co-operate and things will run smoothly. Oh, and calling them a boot won't help you.

But seriously, Merry Christmas (or whatever you may celebrate) and I hope you don't always get the tard on the power trip.

imported_Ammo65
06-18-2009, 05:56 PM
For those who agree that it's okay to look the other way when deciding to correct a Marine in the wrong, you should take a closer look at what the Marine Corps is trying to accomplish when they devoloped the rules and regulations. Every Marine does break a rule at some point but that should not be a reason to deter you from doing what's right. Whatever happened to the leadership principle "know yourself and seek improvement"? Once you signed that dotted line giving yourself to the Marine Corps, you lost the right to make your own rules if it contradicts the Marine Corps. Whether you agree with a particular rule or regulation is of no consequence. You're personal emotions towards it don't count in other words. Whether you like it or not, you are directed to enforce and abide by them. By failing to follow a rule on on purpose, you have said, I can't handle the standard I said I would when I joined. It makes you look weak to those who can (more than likely the ones who advance and succeed in the Marine Corps) and it shows the junior Marines that it's okay to not follow even the easiest of rules. Next time in combat, they'll question your order because they learned to use their personal feelings instead of "instant obedience to orders" as stated in everyone's promotion warrant.

Okay, to those who complain about not seeing specific words in the MCO P1020.34G w/ch 1-5 (final) such as no torn trousers, no baggy pants, no had backwards and so on, you need to do some more research. The MCO P1020.34G is the minimum requirement and directs local commanders to develope further policies. SO CHECK YOUR BASE ORDERS! They too have an order stating uniform regulation and proper civilian attire. For example, because I'm on Camp Pendleton, I'm going to state the Base Order for that: BO1020.1 paragraph 3 (m)

"Standards of Dress" Clothing should be clean, well-maintained and properly fitted. Clothing should be worn to present a neat, orderly appearance (e.g. buttoned, belted or zipped, or fastened. The following EXAMPLES (meaning just because it's not listed doesn't mean it's okay) of innapproprioate civilian dress that apply to all persons aboard Camp Pendleton. They are not all inclusive (again, just because it' not listed doesn't mean it doesn't apply) But they represent dress and appearance which is considered to be NOT in keepin g with the spirit and intent of these regulations and threfore NOT permitted on this installation: (a) clothing with printing, insignia or pictres which are sexually or violently offensive, obsecene or suggestive in nature; promot illegal activities; depict derogatory social, religious, racial or ethnic messages; or present an impression contrary to the good order and discipline of the armed forces and the Marine Corps Base.

(b) Clothing which fits excessively brief or tight. (c) Clothing which fits excessively baggy or loose. (d) Bare feet in public areas except for designated swimming, sunbathing, and recreational areas (e) Bare chest or "shirtless" for men in public areas except for designated swimming, sunbathing, or recreational areas authorized by area commanders. (f) Clothing which is torn, ragged or dirty. (g) clothing and accessories which are intended to present a paramilitary appearance or to serve as weapons. (h) Clothing that is designed primarily to be worn as nightwear/sleepwear. (i) half-shirts or abbreviated shirts or athletic items designed to be worn as an undergarment (sportsbra) are not authorized at any gym facility.

"Minimum Dress Standards Intent" The below is provided to ensure that all understand what the minimum casual dress standards encompass and which facilitiesw imposed the minimum dress standards aboard Camp Pendleton. (a) Upper body: For men, a complete coverage short sleeve shirt with or without pocket and designed to be worn as an outer garment. For women, a blouse or top that provides conservative coverage. (b) Lower body: For men and women, shorts of conservative length and suitable for casual wear as opposed to strictly athletic activity such as jogging, biking and swimming. (again those are examples more of that nature apply). (c) Footwear: Athletic or walking shoes or sandal with or without socks. Males and females are authorized to wear thong type footwear (except for shower shoes that are meant for showering). Slippers o footwear designed for nightwear/sleepwear are NOT permitted. (d) Headgear: All headgrear will be worn appropriately, with the bill to the fron of the head. All headgear will be removed indoors. The wear of clothing articles not specifically designed to be normally worn as headgear (e.g. Bandannas, Doo Rags) is prohibited.

"Exceptions" (a) Clothing such as tank tops, sleeveless T-shirts and athletic type shirts and shorts are appropriate ONLY for quarters areas (your room) physical training (in the act of) sporting activities, and crecreation type areas.

Okay, so if you followed along YES this is while aboard Camp Pendleton not specifically applying to off-base, however, chapter 1 >ch 5 a. of MCO P1020.34G states "It is a Marines duty and personal obligation to maintain a professional and neat appearance. Any activity that detracts from the dinified appearance of Marines is unacceptable. Remember each specific item mentioned that stated things not authorized are examples. It says it in the order "... are examples...not all inclusive. So don't be the one to say well it doesn't say in the MCO if the nature of your violation isn't listed. The honest truth will be if it violates or detracts from professional military appearance or adversly affects the Marine Corps image IS A VIOLATION and you should say "Aye aye Corporal, Sergeant or whoever is attempting to put you ing the right! Quit getting so defensive and acting like an individual in a group institution! Lastly, if you are trying to google the Base Order, you won't get it. It's only accessible to those on a government computer using a CAC card.

Again, stay fully informed by knowing the MCO and your Base Orders, plus any unit specific orders and you'll be in the know and safe.

S/F
A SNCO trying to open your eyes

imported_Toogr82h8
06-18-2009, 06:55 PM
The MP's are doing their job. Their job like any other Marine is to enforce standards. They have an opportunity to fix Marines all the time because they see them over and over again. Calling him out and saying he is a moron and idiot for correcting Marines at the gate is dumb. All you that are defensive about it means you are the bags of shit that are doing it. You joined the Marine Corps and now you follow the rules. It shouldnt be any different for some Gunny who wants to go out in town and be a damn slut. They have standards for liberty attire as well and if you are going to coming back through the gate then you better square yourself away first. That gunny is probably the same one getting knocked up by LCpls in Iraq then turning around and chewing ass to Marines for having their hands in the pockets. MAKES ME SICK!

imported_bubbagene
06-19-2009, 01:28 AM
:) Just something to think about guys and gals.

Just maybe the SNCO"s and the Brass are seeing to much of the liberty attire being violated and are questing the mp's why they are not correcting this or writing them up.

Maybe these MP's are getting their asses chewed on.

Just something to think about.

Y
yes the MP doesn't need to be a prick about the small stuff or jump on you right from the start.

imported_CplVelociraptor
06-19-2009, 06:38 AM
Poster,

Good on you for doing your job. I would recommend that you don't send every Marine packing to their SgtMaj, but if they cop an attitude, and I was in your position, I'd do that, and leave them in the inspection lane for an hour to boot.

I've worn shorts and jeans without a belt off base many times, I try not to, but it happens, and does the MP stop me? No. I bet most MPs wouldn't, because sometimes we forget these things. Is it appropriate to be wearing something that makes you appear unkempt, whorish, or just plain stupid? No. Correct 'em all day.

MD8724
06-23-2009, 10:46 AM
i find it funny that you said you stopped every female and asked them about the liberity attire policy regardless of what they were wearing. That seems a little excessive. You were just wasting peoples time who had done nothing wrong.

imported_CplVelociraptor
06-23-2009, 12:31 PM
They are not going to screw you over unless you are breaking the rules. There for I am never #@$%ed over by an MP.

Absolutely correct.

THORSHAMMER69
06-23-2009, 09:50 PM
Sometimes you just have to sit back and laugh at the way the world works. I just got done talking to a boot LT who was walking around in khaki shorts and a polo shirt. LOL AWESOME!!! I asked him how old he was and he says he's 24. Apparently some Marines have their grandmothers dress them at 24 years old. What the hell? The last thing I said to him was "I'm more than 10 years older than you and you dress like my father, we have a problem here." Corporal, I hate to say it but...you are one of those. The funny thing is...you are probably the only one here who will not understand what I mean by "those".

imported_CplB
06-24-2009, 12:16 AM
you are probably the only one here who will not understand what I mean by "those".

At least he'd fit in if he went to Tarheels

owens2023
06-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Sometimes you just have to sit back and laugh at the way the world works. I just got done talking to a boot LT who was walking around in khaki shorts and a polo shirt. LOL AWESOME!!! I asked him how old he was and he says he's 24. Apparently some Marines have their grandmothers dress them at 24 years old. What the hell? The last thing I said to him was "I'm more than 10 years older than you and you dress like my father, we have a problem here." Corporal, I hate to say it but...you are one of those. The funny thing is...you are probably the only one here who will not understand what I mean by "those".

Officers are expected to dress up. That is part of being an officer. Just because the Lt. was wearing khaki shorts and polo shirt doesn't make him an outcast. He was wearing what is expected of him as a Marine Officer. More Marines should take pride in the way they dress. A often see Marines who look like bags of ass walking around everywhere and it is embarassing. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be in polo shirts, but don't go running around in a ragged t-shirt you've had for 5 years. I am 32 ans wear khaki shorts and polo shirts. My grandmother definitely doesn't dress me.

THORSHAMMER69
06-27-2009, 02:47 PM
owens2023,
I hate to say it pal but you also are one of those. HAHAHA Who the heck told you officers are expected to "dress up" in khaki shorts and a polo shirt? Are you kidding me? That's not dressing up, my friend. You might as well grab yourself a pocket protector while you are at it. HAHAHA

imported_Toogr82h8
06-27-2009, 03:31 PM
There is a reason every new LT dresses that way. It is what they are taught. I think you are one of "those".

THORSHAMMER69
06-27-2009, 03:53 PM
There is a reason every new LT dresses that way. It is what they are taught. I think you are one of "those".

"Alright, listen up candidates! Your next period of instruction will be the proper wear of civilian attire while on liberty. There is only one outfit approved for all officers while on liberty. That outfit is khaki shorts and a polo shirt. I'll tell you this much Devil-Pups, if I ever see you in the fleet you had better be wearing a uniform or khaki shorts and a polo shirt! Does everyone understand that?"

"YES SIR!!!"

"Good, your dismissed"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You might be right, maybe that is what they are taught. But I seriously doubt it. It sounds as though maybe you are offended by my previous posts. Might I venture a guess that you are a closet Khaki shorts-Polo shirt wearer? LOL

JARHEAD377
06-27-2009, 04:55 PM
There is a reason every new LT dresses that way. It is what they are taught.
It begins at OCS & is somewhat ingrained at TBS… then depending on which MOS they goto, is either kept up when they hit the fleet or shit-canned to a more appropriate & realistic attire.

At OCS, after the third week of training, the candidates are allowed off-base “libo” ... there is an inspection & in order to pass, you must be in “proper liberty attire”… i.e. tucked in polo shirt, khaki pants, belt, socks & proper shoes. That’s where the mindset begins…

Then at TBS, you have classes of 200+ 2nd LT’s running around, most clueless with no past Marine Corps experience except for what they remember at OCS, so you get the strict black & white, straight by the book, no gray-area 2nd Lt’s who continue to dress like dorks because they associate tucked in polo, khaki pants or shorts with belt, socks & shoes with the Chucks…

The thing is, you can wear clothes that adhere to the MCO and still not look like a dork. Where Marines get into trouble is thinking they can still dress like they did when they were civilians… and if you don’t like the MC policy, then get out at your EAS... nobody will stop you. But don’t bitch when some moto-Marine calls you out because you’re the jackass who dressed in inappropriate civilian clothes on base or somewhere you know you'll run into other Marines… just use some damn common sense!

S/F

imported_Toogr82h8
06-27-2009, 07:05 PM
"Alright, listen up candidates! Your next period of instruction will be the proper wear of civilian attire while on liberty. There is only one outfit approved for all officers while on liberty. That outfit is khaki shorts and a polo shirt. I'll tell you this much Devil-Pups, if I ever see you in the fleet you had better be wearing a uniform or khaki shorts and a polo shirt! Does everyone understand that?"

"YES SIR!!!"

"Good, your dismissed"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You might be right, maybe that is what they are taught. But I seriously doubt it. It sounds as though maybe you are offended by my previous posts. Might I venture a guess that you are a closet Khaki shorts-Polo shirt wearer? LOL

I am certainly not offended and I definately dont wear khaki shorts and a polo shirt. I have at times but not for every day civilian attire. Proper civilian attire is supposed to mimick the service C uniform. Boots just take it to that level everytime they wear civilian attire. As you see it fades after about 6 months of active duty time. Similiar to seeing a bunch of Pvt's wearing jeanes with their Tshirts tucked in and braided belts.

Dev
06-28-2009, 08:12 PM
aaronsandiego, USSConstellation, and especially USMC_8156 come across as nothing but heinous.


Yeah. I have an opinon on this because I've been in the Marine Corps long enough to be irritated to death with boots like you who don't know the first thing about operational readiness, and have the sack to stand at the gate and tell my Marines that you are going to write them up for having their hat backwards.

Explain how operational readiness as anything to do with not coming off as a slut. Exactly - NOTHING. I have also been in the Marine Corps long enough to know that you have failed if you are bothered by PMO for correcting YOUR Marines. This goes against every Marine ideal, order, and process in the book. Maybe you meant that you were embarrased because of your Marine's blatant disregard for good order and discipline.


... I'm older and far seniour...

That just went out the window. You're worse than a boot.


My point is, you need to relax. Bad. Do a couple of deployments, and you will see how trivial proper libery attire is. It has always been something that has been a waste of time, and hopefully once the prohibition on sleeve tattoos lifts, we will see the liberty attire relax. Playing the "we'll be just like the Army lol" card is pretty lame too, hate to break it to you but our mission and theirs isn't all that different these days. Our success is because of our training and operational focus that is above theirs, not because we don't let Lance Coolies wear sideburns.

Until then, I'll be in board shorts and sandals at the grocery store, and I'll wear a hat backwards this weekend just for you...OH NO!

You have the cowardice to hide behind the internet, so you say such childish things. Go play civilian, and get out of my Corps.

CplH5811
06-29-2009, 12:30 AM
i find it funny that you said you stopped every female and asked them about the liberity attire policy regardless of what they were wearing. That seems a little excessive. You were just wasting peoples time who had done nothing wrong.

Really? So, what you're saying is that it is a waste of time for an uninformed Marine to seek knowledge? Wow, I'm going to start yelling at everyone I come across that doesn't know everything. Right after I finish yelling at myself for not knowing everything.

Quit being so stupid. What better way to get information on a subject than to someone who should know about it? That's like asking a barber why it burns when you pee.

CplH5811
06-29-2009, 05:47 AM
Or........ is that Marine.

Chesty98
06-29-2009, 11:00 AM
I have a funny story. Last saturday I had sobriety check at one of the main gates here in Okinawa. Sobriety check is a duty in which you check military personnel 's gold card/red care and to see if they have it prior to them leaving base. Before I left for duty I went to the 24 hour store here at Camp Foster to catch a drink, but to find two female Marines prancing around in the most provocative attire I've seen in a while. I felt that it was my duty as a SNCO to talk to those two female Marines and find out if they have lost their mind. I went up to them and ask them who they were, rank and if they knew what the appropriate dress was... they said they knew.. and I said ok... well are you sure you want to wear this type of attire out in town? what they were wearing would make a teenager blush. The funny thing about this story is that they said they were going out to a club with male NCOs , and this is the kicker... as I was talking to them one of them was holding their chest because her breasts were popping out of her dress. She knew she was in the wrong. She knew subconsciously that her attire was inappropriate. Why can't female Marines dress in a way that is classy, and lady like at the same time? you can show some skin but having your breasts hang off your dress is out of line. trust me I'm not prude to the point where females can't wear civilian attire which is dressing up, but come on.. we are in Okinawa, and everything is con-screwed to the point that anything we do is showing our butt in a negative way and these two female Marines brought shame to the Marine unit IPAC here in Okinawa.

When sexual assault and rapes are on the rise, why can't female Marines get the point? Do the drill instructors at Parris Island not teach these Females how the fleet is? the do's and don'ts?

and trust me it doesn't even stop there... I went to pay the duty NCO a visit.. I asked him if he saw the young female Marine and he said yes. I asked him if he thought what she was wearing was provocative or very sexually revealing? and he said yes. It's the DUTY NCO to make sure ALL MARINES ARE IN PROPER CIVILIAN ATTIRE!

Civilian attire is trivial and trust me I've been deployed as many times as the next guy, so how many times you've been deployments has nothing to do what is right and wrong.

You can go out to the grocery store and do the whole wear the hat backwards or do whatever, but when you go back home you brag to your friends on how many times you been deployed and blah blah and how much of an action hero you are but you can't even represent the Marine Corps, so for those boys and girls who think they play the role of being a Marine, they are just your normal mediocre Marine who is a LCpl for his four years and gets out or even better that NCO who slips through the cracks and who pretends to be a Marine.

My point is this.. I like to be relaxed when I'm off duty, but does wearing a t-shirt that says F-YOU at Naha Airport downtown Okinawa is that cool?? or having shorts that are ripped to the point you can see that guys underwear? or the female who likes to show her breasts or bra in a see through shirt? no one has special priority if they are male or female, Pvt through General have to adhere to the Marine Corps regulations.. bottom line no exceptions to the rule. does this make sense?
SSgt DC

imported_Gunny P
06-29-2009, 12:54 PM
E4rumor and those who supported his rant: keep on keepin' on, Brother. You are right. Enforcing personal appearance standards is at a low ebb (male and female) and it's the DUTY of all Marines to correct their subordinates, peers and leaders when they see the regs violated. It's short-sighted to overlook the failings of others due to current fads (ripped clothes, hats askew, pants hanging off the butt, not shaving, dressing like a hooker, etc.). And trying to play the "I deployed so I don't have to follow the regs" card is equally short-sighted. Marines have returned from combat for more than 200 years and still managed to meet regulations. You're not special. Personal appearance on leave and liberty falls well below operational readiness, training, force protection, etc., but it's still an important part of living up to the high standard you signed up for. Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. Apply it.

CplH5811
06-30-2009, 12:36 AM
Although I am a firm believer in proper liberty attire, I can understand the frustration that some junior Marines face when they see SNCOs walking around with clothing sagging off of them. Although I understand that it isn't everyone but, as anyone who has been through boot camp knows, it only takes one.

NRTrackChamp2004
06-30-2009, 11:39 AM
But you cant use someone elses laziness and nastiness, to make it excusable for ones self.

"Because that guy aint doing the right thing, that makes it okay for me to do the wrong thing too!" NOO!!!!

Like Gunny P said, its about integrity, and boot Marines should know integrity all to well, considering they just got out of boot camp.

notamotogrunt
06-30-2009, 03:57 PM
Look dude. Youre a new guy in the corps and your motivated, good for you. I hope this stuff works outs for you and you have a successful career. But youre also admin. So (Im trying what some of you call tact, changing my ways a bit) you and other office jobs have a very different view on things than guys like me. Liberty attire may be a big deal in your world but in mine it makes little to no difference. No one here is going to care what you are wearing, what you do with your spare time, how your room looks, etc. as long as you can properly do your job.

NRTrackChamp2004
06-30-2009, 04:17 PM
I actually work with and observe a lot of different guys in different MOS's and even a good bit of 03's who are FAP'd to us. I dont think ones given MOS reflects an individuals idea on how they precieve liberty attire. Its not a big deal in my world, I just choose to simply follow rules and regulations. Everyone knows that the clothes you wear dont have any impact whatsoever on your job. Thats not the base of the arguement. Its the simple fact that liberty attire is an order, an order in which we as Marines must follow. Simple as that. Do I agree with everything in the order. No. Do I sometimes break the order. Yes. But I dont go all crazy and purposely break the order.

If someone was to correct me when/if I happened to be out of order, I'd simple be like good to go and correct myself. Theres no arguement when you're wrong. When its written in black and white of what you're suppose to do, regardless if its stupid. You cant argue it. And that moreorless erks me, is people wanna argue against it like theres reasoning. They're put in place for a reason, to "hold us to a higher standard", regardless if people thinks it works, like it or w/e. Our past is what makes us who we are today, and if we as Marines dont pick up some slack, I guarentee that the high and mighty Marine Corps will be observed just like any other branch of service. And I for one, dont really want that. (I know some people could care less though)

And yeah, I might be a newer Marine, buts thats not the reason I'm motivated. I actually kinda hated the Marine Corps when I first got in and was in the fleet. But, the more I was around, the more I observed, the more I liked it. I mean, as boots we were all motivated at some point. I lost that boot motivation. Lost moitvation in general. But, only recently have I actually picked up good motivation, something that I think will stick around for a good long time.

NRTrackChamp2004
06-30-2009, 05:31 PM
you cant think whatever you want. and your remark to just lie about not being in the Marine Corps is ignorant. which, I can tell by a lot of your replies, thats what you are.

Did I ever I say obeyed ALL orders to their EXACT wording? And yeah, I know I cant "fuck my wife however I want to" Article 125 states what is not appropriate.

With an attitude and a minset like yours, I really hope you're not an NCO. I'm not gonna doubt your abilities to lead Marines in combat and do your job, but to lead Marines as Marines to be Marines, I think you'd fail at it. either way, i'm through arguing with your ignorant ass.

notamotogrunt
06-30-2009, 06:34 PM
Look kid. I keep long hair for that reason exactly. Someone comes up and says hey marine/devil dog whatever out in town you just keep doin what your doin. When they come up and ask you simply tell um hey man I just got out bro. They leave you alone. its not ignorant. They go on feeling accomplished and you go on without being pissed off or bothered. Everyone wins.
I do, however, appriciate the fact that you can see the difference between being able to lead guys in combat (which is all i honestly give a damn about, liberty attire and shaving wont get you killed, combat will) and lead them in garrison. i dont attempt to, theres no need. They have performed in country, boots perform in the field, Im happy. I dont care what they wear or anything else, as long as I know they can clear a house, knock and cordon, get the Mk up when its down. Get what Im saying.

NOW just playing devils advocate here......If youre all about this following orders shit. Then how is you picking which orders to follow and not following just a few orders to a T any different from what I do? I just pick different rules to break. Your no different than me when it comes to that. i break the rules that I think are stupid, and you break the ones you think are retarded.......isnt that kinda weird?

PUNISHR
06-30-2009, 06:51 PM
hahaha, you know if i was you i wouldnt be too proud to say your an MP, we call you guys buddy fuckers. the only MP i will ever stand are the grunts that get fapped out to MP's... RAH! but seriously that reflective vest it cute bro....hahahaha.....stupid boot ! but in all honesty your right in ways. regulations are regulations and the need to be enforced wether we like it or not. my issue is that we have to enforce it. every marine knows what the regulations are. this brings me back to point i made on the no shave forum, the corps is full of soft nasties.

NRTrackChamp2004
06-30-2009, 07:52 PM
NOW just playing devils advocate here......If youre all about this following orders shit. Then how is you picking which orders to follow and not following just a few orders to a T any different from what I do? I just pick different rules to break. Your no different than me when it comes to that. i break the rules that I think are stupid, and you break the ones you think are retarded.......isnt that kinda weird?
I cant even argue. Cause now you wanna get all technical and shit, down to the nitty gritty, calling me out on an order that I can bout damn guarentee 90%+ Marines disobey.

But, to atleast halfway defend myself. How do you know what kind of sex I have with my wife? Or any Marine with his wife? I pretty sure most people would agree its perfectly to wear a plain white t-shirt in the privacy of your own house. Most people would possibly also agree its okay if you stayed at home all day, never went anywhere and didnt shave. Its kind of the principle that we want Marines to wear proper attire "for the sake" of the Marine Cops to they're not viewed as shitbags because we hold Marines up to high standards. You cant get asschewed if no one see's you doing wrong, so therefor there wouldnt be a thread about proper liberty attire because everyone wears what they want at home. Obviously thats not the case, Marines look like ass, so people do asschewing. So, if you dont do it out in public, pretty much, no harm, no foul. But, I know where you're gonna take this is I leave it at that. You'll throw out there...... well what about integrity that you squared away Marines have? Do the right thing even when no one is watching?

Honestly man, its a fuckin lose lose situation. No one will EVER be a perfect Marine and obide by ALL orders their whole fucking career. Just not gonna happen. Impossible.

But, I do try my damnest, and thats what counts.

wzgriffith
06-30-2009, 08:13 PM
Marines have returned from combat for more than 200 years and still managed to meet regulations.

Im sorry, but this always irritates me. Marines did not have have "civillain regs" 200 years ago. This is a silly argument.

NRTrackChamp2004
06-30-2009, 10:03 PM
WOW!!!!!!!! because they didnt have this one little bitty regulation back then, you wanna call it silly. His point of that sentence wasnt directly related to "proper liberty attire 200+ years ago." Its the fact that regardless of what rules, regulations, orders were in place, Marines obeyed. Marines did what they were suppose to do, did what was expected of them.

imported_Toogr82h8
06-30-2009, 10:07 PM
I agree that you cannot take everything literally without looking a little deeper. The purpose of the comment is that Marine have been following rules for 200 years. None of us joined to change the way things are done. Sure we like to have a say in changing regulations but we are not reinventing the wheel. This manner is about discipline and not looking like any other turd out there. You are a United States Marine, some people take pride in that, and many people look up to us. So dress and present yourself as though you are representing your nation. If you dont care, SHUT UP AND GET OUT, and when you do think about the shitbag you were when your bragging in the VFW that you were a Marine and went to Iraq a few times.

CplH5811
06-30-2009, 11:08 PM
hahaha, you know if i was you i wouldnt be too proud to say your an MP, we call you guys buddy fuckers. the only MP i will ever stand are the grunts that get fapped out to MP's... RAH! but seriously that reflective vest it cute bro....hahahaha.....stupid boot ! but in all honesty your right in ways. regulations are regulations and the need to be enforced wether we like it or not. my issue is that we have to enforce it. every marine knows what the regulations are. this brings me back to point i made on the no shave forum, the corps is full of soft nasties.

Are you serious? The discussion is about libo attire and since you've been proven wrong, you chose to attack a voluntary choice of someone's MOS? Even though we're all Marines and all working to the same goal in forward areas? Wow, talk about desperate. Quit being a punk and stay on topic. Anyway.....

Yes, the Corps is full of a bunch of people that are just going to be nasty and there really is nothing that anyone can do about it. The only thing that can be done is winning the small battles of trying to fix the minor issues like improper libo attire. So, you keep fixing the minor infractions and the larger ones will pretty much fix themselves.

wzgriffith
07-01-2009, 03:24 PM
WOW!!!!!!!! because they didnt have this one little bitty regulation back then, you wanna call it silly. His point of that sentence wasnt directly related to "proper liberty attire 200+ years ago." Its the fact that regardless of what rules, regulations, orders were in place, Marines obeyed. Marines did what they were suppose to do, did what was expected of them.

I know, I know. I jut have a sgtmaj who's obsessed with the whole "Marines have done so and so for 200 years," for EVERYTHING. So it irks me more than it should.

imported_Gunny P
07-01-2009, 04:12 PM
"Blessed are the cheese makers?"
"Of course it's not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturer of dairy products."
-- Monty Python's Life of Brian

You're correct, I did not mean we have been following current personal appearance regulations for 200+ years. We HAVE been following regulations -- to a T -- for that long and it's something for which Marines are known and respected. Will this topic always be problem? Yes. It's a bucket with a hole in the bottom. Does that mean that I or you should just say "F-it" and stop caring? No.

As for notamotogrunt's (though I'm reluctant to dignify his bass-ackword mindset with a reply) and some others' sentiments on what really matters and what doesn't: No, you looking like a bag of dirt or whore will not affect the outcome of the next battle. Yes, combat proficiency should be and is the #1 priority for Marines. But any military unit can be combat proficient. The difference with Marines is we're more than that. We do that and a thousand other things that set us apart. If you want to just be proficient at your MOS, do it in the Army, AF or Navy (no offense intended to our brethren). "Marine" means the whole package, not just the parts you like.

I'm all for integrity and doing the right thing even when no one is watching. I'm also a realist. We realistically cannot enforce regulations like appearance and how you get it on with your wife IN YOUR HOME (if you're getting it on at the J-ville mall, expect me to say something). But we can, should and will continue to enforce regulations outside the home. Your appearance and behavior directly reflect on me and my Corps.

3533
07-05-2009, 08:01 PM
The thing is this gentlemen. We all chose to join the Marine Corps. We knew Marines hold themselves to something a little bit higher than the rest of the world. And like many other have said before me, love it or shut your mouth and do your time, then get out. Honestly how hard is it to wear a belt? To Wear jeans that don't have holes? To wear shoes instead of the infamous sandals? I don't know if I speak for everyone else but if that is all the sacrifices I have to make in order to serve my country and be a part of something so deeply steeped in tradition and honor, then I consider myself to be lucky to have such an opportunity.

E4RUMOR
07-16-2009, 02:45 AM
The Marine Corps has long enjoyed a worldwide reputation for smart appearance and soldierly performance of every task. This reputation has been enhanced by our continuous demonstration to the American public that our execution of peacetime functions is excelled only by our performance in battle.
During peacetime, the reputation of the Corps is maintained to a considerable degree by creating favorable, highly military impressions in parades, ceremonies, and other functions. It is therefore the responsibility of every Marine concerned that marching units in the public eye fully meet the standards by which the Marine Corps is measured. People in key positions must have perfect posture, troop leaders must excel in command presence, and uniforms and equipment must be in outstanding condition and appearance. All such public appearance should be preceded by ample drill and specific rehearsal as needed. Here is where you, as a noncommissioned officer, can make yourself felt and can give unremitting attention to the fine points that make a good Marine organization shine on parade.
THERE IS A MISTAKEN TENDENCY TODAY FOR SOME NCOs TO SAY, "I'M NOT A PARADE MARINE," OR, "I'M A FIELD MARINE': THIS TENDENCY IS SOMETIMES REFLECTED IN UNITS THAT, AS SOON AS THEY HIT THE FIELD, LIVE, LOOK, AND ACT LIKE PIGS, ON THE THEORY THAT THIS DEMONSTRATES HOW TOUGH AND SALTY THEY ARE. THE HALLMARK OF THE WORLD'S GREAT FIGHTING ORGANIZATIONS-THE ROMAN LEGION, BRITAIN'S BRIGADE OF GUARDS, AND MANY OTHERS- IS THAT THEY ARE AS GOOD ON PARADE AS THEY ARE IN THE FIELD OR IN THE ATTACK. MOST OUTFITS CAN BE GOOD AT SOME SINGLE ASPECT OF THEIR DUTIES, BUT ONLY THE ELITE EXCEL AT EVERYTHING-AND THAT IS WHAT THE MARINE CORP EXPECTS EVERY MARINE TO DO.

- LT. COL KENNETH W. ESTES USMC (RET)
HANDBOOK FOR MARINE NCOS
PGS: 203-204, PAR 1008.



Since a Marine is a Marine 24/7, perhaps this can apply somewhat. I don't think this means I drill everywhere I go when I'm on liberty or leave.... but the appearance part... yeah... I think that can fall in the category. Semper Fi, Leathernecks.

THORSHAMMER69
07-16-2009, 03:01 AM
The only thing I would add is that we should all remember what cultural norms means. An 18 year old doesn't have to be dressed like his 45 year old father to present a smart appearance. I've found most of this thread humorous. Sometimes people need to stop being such hardasses and use some common sense. If you see a Marine in the chow hall wearing shower shoes by all means, jump sown his throat. The dipshit earned it. On the other hand, if a Marine is on his way to the beach and stops by the 7 day store to grab a bag of ice and he's wearing his Mossimo flip flops, why mess with him. That's the kind of stuff that bothers me. Luckily, I don't have to worry about it anymore these days. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with letting bygones be bygones. :rolleyes:

SSgtAllen3381
07-16-2009, 04:18 AM
The new MEF SgtMaj told us the other day there are two wars going on. One over seas and one at LeJeune. He said he spent a few hours at the PX/COMMISSARY correcting Marines on proper civilian attire. He is taking this serious.

ares7
07-16-2009, 12:14 PM
All that needs to be required is a shirt and pants. Shorts optional. Seriously, there is no need to get a heart attack over this. Don't worry about sizes and shit. As long as Marines aren't running around in their birthday suit, we shouldn't stress it.

kenny10
07-16-2009, 07:03 PM
I wear my SRH shirt, my shorts and my dc's with a belt........don't look like shit either and I have never been corrected, HOWEVER I can only imagine how many people have wanted to correct me because I didn't dress to their "standards"

Sizes do matter because a 3xl shirt and shants (shorts that are more like pants) ARE RIDICULOUS

cakeisalie
07-16-2009, 07:10 PM
ive been meaning to put my 2 cents in on this one, really..who cares what we dress like? if someone wants to wear baggy jeans with there cracks showing so long as there shirts cover it..who cares? if a female wants to have her breast coming out, and shorts so far up her ying yang it looks like underwear, so long as her privates arnt showing..who cares? the rule needs to ONLY apply in the chow hall...thats personally, ive correct marines for wearing flip flops in the chow hall ( although ive been told in Hawaii its authorized, but not everyone is in Hawaii ) and my personaly favorite is the guy who wears a wife beater to the chow hall, man do i love to see those guys get lite up. other than that, nothing should really be an issue, id rather dress to my liking, then wear that stripped polo and jeans like the rest of the tools...personally i wear what i want, and noone says a thing to me, but im not saying my crack shows either. you just have to be smart about it.

kenny10
07-16-2009, 07:19 PM
ive been meaning to put my 2 cents in on this one, really..who cares what we dress like? if someone wants to wear baggy jeans with there cracks showing so long as there shirts cover it..who cares? if a female wants to have her breast coming out, and shorts so far up her ying yang it looks like underwear, so long as her privates arnt showing..who cares? the rule needs to ONLY apply in the chow hall...thats personally, ive correct marines for wearing flip flops in the chow hall ( although ive been told in Hawaii its authorized, but not everyone is in Hawaii ) and my personaly favorite is the guy who wears a wife beater to the chow hall, man do i love to see those guys get lite up. other than that, nothing should really be an issue, id rather dress to my liking, then wear that stripped polo and jeans like the rest of the tools...personally i wear what i want, and noone says a thing to me, but im not saying my crack shows either. you just have to be smart about it.

How the hell are you going to say dress however you want because you don't care yet you correct Marines for flip flops? Which is it?
Dressing like a whore makes you look like a whore and in turn is pretty nasty to me.......and wearing shit that is 3 times to big is dumb
how can their cracks be showing if their shirt is covering it up???
Thats great, I can see it now a female Marine out in town dressed like a skank a little kid goes "mom? and the mom goes" oh hun thats a Marine...........how terrific
or the moron with huge clothes on

cakeisalie
07-16-2009, 07:30 PM
How the hell are you going to say dress however you want because you don't care yet you correct Marines for flip flops? Which is it?
Dressing like a whore makes you look like a whore and in turn is pretty nasty to me.......and wearing shit that is 3 times to big is dumb
how can their cracks be showing if their shirt is covering it up???
Thats great, I can see it now a female Marine out in town dressed like a skank a little kid goes "mom? and the mom goes" oh hun thats a Marine...........how terrific
or the moron with huge clothes on

yes...yes thats EXACTLY HOW IT HAPPENS!!!!.....first female marines are hard to identify unless you know they are a marine, and 2 let her dress how she so fits, its her body, if she wants to dress like a skank..let her, it aint me, nor you. as for the guys with oversized clothes, dont get me wrong, i laugh when i see it too, but if thats the image your going for, let them, marine or not looks stupid to me, but im not going to run up to him with knife hands out and starting chewing him out. as far as teh flip flops, i never said I wear flip flops in the chow hall, because i dont, but when im on leave, and im back home, ill wear flip flops to a resturant, ill wear earrings, i simply dont care.

kenny10
07-16-2009, 07:44 PM
yes...yes thats EXACTLY HOW IT HAPPENS!!!!.....first female marines are hard to identify unless you know they are a marine, and 2 let her dress how she so fits, its her body, if she wants to dress like a skank..let her, it aint me, nor you. as for the guys with oversized clothes, dont get me wrong, i laugh when i see it too, but if thats the image your going for, let them, marine or not looks stupid to me, but im not going to run up to him with knife hands out and starting chewing him out. as far as teh flip flops, i never said I wear flip flops in the chow hall, because i dont, but when im on leave, and im back home, ill wear flip flops to a resturant, ill wear earrings, i simply dont care.

Don't agree with you on the female dress code or the male dress code.
I won't run up to him or her with knife hands either I don't even bother because I don't care to get my blood pressure higher and if they want to look like a shitbird then let em.
You said that you have corrected Marines who wear flip flops but yet you are all about not enforcing any rules because you simply don't care.
I wear nike shorts and a black wife beater to a grocery store when I am at home and have to run in a get something real quick , 200 miles from a base, no one knows I am a Marine................no one knows my dress code either.

Lone_NCO
07-16-2009, 10:42 PM
Don't agree with you on the female dress code or the male dress code.
I won't run up to him or her with knife hands either I don't even bother because I don't care to get my blood pressure higher and if they want to look like a shitbird then let em.
You said that you have corrected Marines who wear flip flops but yet you are all about not enforcing any rules because you simply don't care.
I wear nike shorts and a black wife beater to a grocery store when I am at home and have to run in a get something real quick , 200 miles from a base, no one knows I am a Marine................no one knows my dress code either.

This is silly guys, First off regardless of people knowing your a Marine or not doesnt change that your in the wrong (not to say that I dont do wrong as well), so thats kind of a bad arguement Kenny, I'm not really trying to bash you just saying thats the wrong thought process.

Cakes, In my brain I feel what your saying about let people wear what they want on liberty who cares, but thats not quite how the Marine Corps works. I havent operated like that since I was a LCpl. You cant selectively correct Marines based on what you like or dislike....IE, so if I dont like guys who wear extra tight pink polo shirts I tell them to go home and change, but i'm all good with plain white tees, so they can stay...?

Sillyness

CplH5811
07-16-2009, 10:55 PM
I'm going to agree with Lone on this one. Even though I am sure that we all have been subject to "do as I say, not as I do", we still must adhere to certain rules and regs while we rate the uniform of a US Marine. Whether we like it or not. So, just suck it up and wear proper clothing by the MC's standards until you get out. After that, you can run around in a lime green tutu if you want. Until then, look like a decent human being.

cakeisalie
07-16-2009, 11:02 PM
[QUOTE= so if I dont like guys who wear extra tight pink polo shirts I tell them to go home and change, but i'm all good with plain white tees, so they can stay...?

Sillyness[/QUOTE]

whats wrong with pink polos? lol true im just arguing my point, im not saying im right by what im saying, but id rather dress how i feel. personally i think i walk that line sometimes, but i dont feel like im crossing it like some people, but its still wrong.

CplH5811
07-16-2009, 11:13 PM
:D
whats wrong with pink polos? lol true im just arguing my point, im not saying im right by what im saying, but id rather dress how i feel. personally i think i walk that line sometimes, but i dont feel like im crossing it like some people, but its still wrong.

I'm kinda confused by this. Are you saying that you're wrong, or that others are wrong? I'm just looking for clarification. Because even though you "walk that line", it could still be seen as crossing it.

And there is plenty wrong with pink polos. :D

THORSHAMMER69
07-17-2009, 02:11 AM
I'm going to agree with Lone on this one. Even though I am sure that we all have been subject to "do as I say, not as I do", we still must adhere to certain rules and regs while we rate the uniform of a US Marine. Whether we like it or not. So, just suck it up and wear proper clothing by the MC's standards until you get out. After that, you can run around in a lime green tutu if you want. Until then, look like a decent human being.

I googled "decent human being in green tutu". It looks like there might be one out there. I don't know her personally, but she looks nice enough. HAHAHA:D

SSgtAllen3381
07-17-2009, 04:24 AM
All that needs to be required is a shirt and pants. Shorts optional. Seriously, there is no need to get a heart attack over this. Don't worry about sizes and shit. As long as Marines aren't running around in their birthday suit, we shouldn't stress it.

What about shoes? He mentioned kicking someone out of the PX for having on shower shoes from Boot Camp, he said he could see the NUMBER. :)

GySgt_0848
07-18-2009, 09:51 AM
First, I am new to this forum thing. We actually get the Marine Times over here (Yes Iraq, again) rather late, so I am sure this issue has been beat to death. But I will say, the absolute absurd responses to this young Devil Dogs spot on post about liberty attire inspired me to create an account, and respond.

First, E4 kudos to you for doing the right thing. Many reponses have come back about tours in Iraq this, or I am a grunt that...blah blah blah. The bottom line is that the privledge to wear civilain clothes while in a liberty status is just that...a privledge. Before anyone goes on about "not understanding" times are changing, and it is the new way, or 3 tours in Iraq so liberty attire doesnt matter crap, let me give you a snapshot of me:

I am 29 years old, I have been a Gunny for about 2 years now. I am an arty guy, but currentlly I am in Iraq (again) with an infantry battalion. So I have seen it from every angle from many types of Marines. At the end of the day two things need to be understood:

1. If you dont like the civilain attire policy, then get out. Go somewhere else, because some of you may think it is stupid, outdated ect. The purpose behind it is to ensure Marines dont go out and represent themselves, their unit, or the Corps in a disgraceful way. Period. We are and will continue to be held to a higher standard. It isnt that hard. Sure would I love to walk around in t-shirts, flip-flops, and board shorts with a beard-you bet! But the fact is, I dont because that is not what we as Marines do. And if I see you, I will fix you-PERIOD!

2. Stop thinking the world owes any of us anything. A common trend I am seeing is an attitude of self-entitlement, that the Marine Corps owes us something for serving in Iraq. Well Newsflash- It is your job. PERIOD. Seeing Marines walk around like their shit doesnt stink, becasue they did multiple tours to Iraq is garbage. I am not taking away from the excellent manner in which these Marines have performed, becasue they are awesome and isnsipiring to watch, but bottom line is that at the end of the day it is our job.

Yep- PFT, not any more I have been to Iraq, Haircut- Nope, no haricut chit, I have been to Iraq, BCP, I thought that once you have been to Iraq twice you could be 28% body fat......get my point?

ares7
07-20-2009, 06:07 PM
What about shoes? He mentioned kicking someone out of the PX for having on shower shoes from Boot Camp, he said he could see the NUMBER. :)

The purpose of a shoe is to protect the human foot from many things. If some people want more protection than others it should be their call.

SSgtAllen3381
07-20-2009, 06:19 PM
The purpose of a shoe is to protect the human foot from many things. If some people want more protection than others it should be their call.

I was kidding about the shoes Ares7...

cakeisalie
07-21-2009, 05:54 PM
First, I am new to this forum thing. We actually get the Marine Times over here (Yes Iraq, again) rather late, so I am sure this issue has been beat to death. But I will say, the absolute absurd responses to this young Devil Dogs spot on post about liberty attire inspired me to create an account, and respond.

First, E4 kudos to you for doing the right thing. Many reponses have come back about tours in Iraq this, or I am a grunt that...blah blah blah. The bottom line is that the privledge to wear civilain clothes while in a liberty status is just that...a privledge. Before anyone goes on about "not understanding" times are changing, and it is the new way, or 3 tours in Iraq so liberty attire doesnt matter crap, let me give you a snapshot of me:

I am 29 years old, I have been a Gunny for about 2 years now. I am an arty guy, but currentlly I am in Iraq (again) with an infantry battalion. So I have seen it from every angle from many types of Marines. At the end of the day two things need to be understood:

1. If you dont like the civilain attire policy, then get out. Go somewhere else, because some of you may think it is stupid, outdated ect. The purpose behind it is to ensure Marines dont go out and represent themselves, their unit, or the Corps in a disgraceful way. Period. We are and will continue to be held to a higher standard. It isnt that hard. Sure would I love to walk around in t-shirts, flip-flops, and board shorts with a beard-you bet! But the fact is, I dont because that is not what we as Marines do. And if I see you, I will fix you-PERIOD!

2. Stop thinking the world owes any of us anything. A common trend I am seeing is an attitude of self-entitlement, that the Marine Corps owes us something for serving in Iraq. Well Newsflash- It is your job. PERIOD. Seeing Marines walk around like their shit doesnt stink, becasue they did multiple tours to Iraq is garbage. I am not taking away from the excellent manner in which these Marines have performed, becasue they are awesome and isnsipiring to watch, but bottom line is that at the end of the day it is our job.

Yep- PFT, not any more I have been to Iraq, Haircut- Nope, no haricut chit, I have been to Iraq, BCP, I thought that once you have been to Iraq twice you could be 28% body fat......get my point?

Yawn...the take-away? Your a gunny, your in Iraq, nonsense...more nonsense...i want my 2min back from reading your message...its not about where we have been or where we served.....if the person isnt jacking sh*t up let him/her be. Flip flops in the chowhall....unless its Hawaii LET IT BE...white T's?? there is no real purpose to have that rule imo. what im trying to get at is, it doesnt mattere what we wear, the job still gets done. If its so bad where you feel like you haev to say something...maybe you should get out...

SSgtAllen3381
07-21-2009, 06:06 PM
Flip flops in the Mess Hall...no way shape or form. No wife beaters or tank tops either. No one wants to see or smell dirty pits and feet.

Marines are already allowed to come to the Mess Hall in PT Gear for take out; Division Mess Halls. Let's not get out of hand.

Gunny_2862
07-21-2009, 07:50 PM
Yawn...the take-away? Your a gunny, your in Iraq, nonsense...more nonsense...i want my 2min back from reading your message...its not about where we have been or where we served.....if the person isnt jacking sh*t up let him/her be. Flip flops in the chowhall....unless its Hawaii LET IT BE...white T's?? there is no real purpose to have that rule imo. what im trying to get at is, it doesnt mattere what we wear, the job still gets done. If its so bad where you feel like you haev to say something...maybe you should get out...


Cake, the only shit you constantly spew is if the offender of a certain policy can do his/her job, let them disregard rules and regualtions. The holes in your theory are huge.

1. How do I even know how you perform in your day to day duties, because when you blantantly disregard a Marine Corps Order, it's obvious already that you've done screwed the pooch as a marine.

2. How can you even recommend that the gunny get out for doing what he's held accountable to do, which is what you are held accountable to, which is to enforce all rules/regulations/and orders. Not those you wish to follow because your opinion is different than the marine corps's opinions.

Anyway, stating your opinion is one thing, but don't try and and make your incorrect views the right views.

cakeisalie
07-21-2009, 07:59 PM
Cake, the only shit you constantly spew is if the offender of a certain policy can do his/her job, let them disregard rules and regualtions. The holes in your theory are huge.

1. How do I even know how you perform in your day to day duties, because when you blantantly disregard a Marine Corps Order, it's obvious already that you've done screwed the pooch as a marine.

2. How can you even recommend that the gunny get out for doing what he's held accountable to do, which is what you are held accountable to, which is to enforce all rules/regulations/and orders. Not those you wish to follow because your opinion is different than the marine corps's opinions.

Anyway, stating your opinion is one thing, but don't try and and make your incorrect views the right views.

The thing is you DONT know whether a marine does his day-to-day duties...like it was said in an earlier post, 90% of marines interpret the rules/policies there own way, and its there own choice to decide whether they want to abide by them or not, as a matter of fact, i think every single marine is guilty of it. As for the recommendation, its just that, a recommendation. You can choose to follow it or not. Im not throwing you any theories, and im also not saying disregard the rules, but im saying some of the rules are ridculous and need to be changed, and personally as far as liberty attire, ill be damned if someone tells me what i can/cannot wear.

CplH5811
07-21-2009, 10:47 PM
The thing is you DONT know whether a marine does his day-to-day duties...like it was said in an earlier post, 90% of marines interpret the rules/policies there own way, and its there own choice to decide whether they want to abide by them or not, as a matter of fact, i think every single marine is guilty of it. As for the recommendation, its just that, a recommendation. You can choose to follow it or not. Im not throwing you any theories, and im also not saying disregard the rules, but im saying some of the rules are ridculous and need to be changed, and personally as far as liberty attire, ill be damned if someone tells me what i can/cannot wear.

Well, then I take you are already damned. You know, since you have been through boot camp. And making up figures for your own arguments is really pathetic. Maybe 90% of the Marines you associate with interpret rules and twist words so that it can suit them, but not 90% of the Corps. Sure, some may misinterpret words in order to where they think that they can wear something to a certain place and be in the right. We'll just tack that one up to cowardice and stupidity, shall we? The reason I say cowardice is that they are to afraid of being wrong to ask if they are reading it right. So, until you get that DD form 214, just suck it up and abide by the rules.

E4RUMOR
07-22-2009, 05:01 AM
Few things here to be pointed out.

It's amazing to me to see the gall of some individuals on here. A friendler, softer Marine Corps, indeed. Some of you with your blatant disrespect saying, "I'll be damed if someone tells me that I have to do this, or do that." 10 or 15 years ago, you probably would have got punched in the face, and that would probably be the only way you'd learn any respect. What's even more mindblowing is that statements like this are coming from Marines who've been in for all of 3 or 4 years and have a few combat deployments under their belt and think they're salty enough to dictate policy on their own terms. It's disgusting. And it's a growing trend that I'm seeing more and more of the longer that I'm in. If I go TAD for a month and then come back and hear about a brand new Marine I haven't even heard of yet, because he's already gotten in trouble due to disrespect or having an attitude, I wonder what the hell is going on. Where is the breakdown occuring. Somewhere between bootcamp and SOI/ or MOS school... cause they are hitting the fleet with no tact or respect anymore. Granted it's not with all new Marines, but the disease is growing.

I say this, because I see it spreading out on here as well. We know that 99% of the individuals that come in this discussion forum are either retired or active duty Marines. Many identify themselves as being a Sergeant Major, Gunnery Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, etc,. . Yet we have individuals in here that are probably Lance Corporals, Corporals, and Sergeants arguiing and responding in the most disrespectful manner I've ever seen. No only do these individuals have no regard for policy and regualtion but they lack the tact and bearing of a United States Marine.

But that's the cool thing about the internet. You can be whatever and whoever you want, and nine times out of ten, you don't get caught simply because no one wants to take the time to find out who you are and hold you accountable for your disgraceful and unprofessional responses. Funny thing is that you probably post your opinions all big and bad on here, but in reality, when you get corrected by someone higher ranking, you say, Aye Aye and do what your told. You have no backbone, because in all reality, you WOULDN'T sit there and argue with someone higher ranking about fixing your appearance. You'd shut your mouth, or give the proper, "Aye Aye First Sergeant, Gunnery Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Sergeant, etc,." and fix yourself.

This all comes down to maturity. There are many orders and things that I don't like about the Marine Corps, but I'm mature enough to know my place and do what I'm told. It drives me absolutely nuts that I have to salute a boot second lieutenant right out of OCS when I've got 6 years of Marine Corps experiences and knowledge under my belt... and he's just some college kid that graduated high school the same year as me or after me. But I still give that proper greeting of the day and that salute.

There are higher enlisted ranks in my chain of cammand that I absolutely hate as people and as Marines, but I still address them by their rank and do what they order, because it's my responsibility and directive to follow the orders and directions of my superior leaders and to enforce all regulations and articles governing the discipline of the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

When we all joined the Corps, our reasons were varied. However, we were all taught to function together as a unit; not as an individual. We retain our individuality to some degree, but we don't get afforded the opportunity to dictate policy and interpret rules and regulations as individuals. We CERTAINLY DO NOT change anything by showing a lack of regard for any of them either. You who hate the liberty attire policy... do what I suggested before. Become a unity with others who hold the same stand you do....and work together to get the regulations modified or changed. Do it the right way. If you're not planning on staying in, then you have nothing to worry about. You can put up with it for the remainder of the time you're in, or continually get irritated and harrassed by those in your chain of command. Either way, you create your own misery, simply because you act like a child and throw a tantrum because you are corrected, told you're wrong, or just flat out no.

The role of women, weapon systems, and uniforms in the Marine Corps have changed due to the opinions of Marines. You want it changed... do something about it.

In the meantime, just stand by if you're jacked up (and intentionally being that way) to get reamed or corrected. Semper Fi... (Oh, and I was stationed in Hawaii for four years... no shower shoes or sandals allowed in the chowhall... never was.)

Gunny_2862
07-22-2009, 07:45 PM
Good response E4Rumor, that was well said.

Cake, again, you have the choice to violate any uniform regulation you want, but you can be told what to wear within your bases civilian attire regulations. If you really want to take the stance that no one can tell you what to wear, I want you to wear a do-rag and baseball cap on backwards, shower shoes (like the ones you get in boot camp) with shorts with holes in the ass and a wife beater. I then want you to walk into the nearest MP shack. If you for some reason cannot do this, than you have been told what to wear and you abide by it. If the only time you were to dress like that is when no one is looking, you lack morale courage and all this is big talk and actions to try and prove you are a man who can make up his own mind, regardless if you know what your doing is wrong.

Like E4 said and I've stated in this thread and the shaving one, if you want the rules changed, bring up your ideas through your chain of command and discuss them. It's the only way it will happen. I remember a time when all marines were required to wear their covers while driving an car, even though we weren't required to salute. The issue took years to be changed, but constant pressure up the chain finally had people look at it and change the rule as it stands today.

I agree that some of the regs we have should be changed, but do it the right way. when you get out you can walk around town in your nut-hugging speedos for all I care, but for now, just follow the rules. Hell, they aren't even bad. Jeans, t-shirts untucked, sandals are all allowed now. It's not required to be in khakis with collared shirts and loafers anymore, how much more do we need really? What are your concerns with the current civilian attire, I'm curious?

One final thing cake, have you ever researched and read your base order on civilian attire?

1HardDI
07-22-2009, 09:45 PM
E4Rumor, it's good to see a Corporal who still gives a shit and has the testicular fortitude to enforce regulations. To those who say "who cares what they wear on liberty, as long as they perform their day-to-day duties," I'll submit this to you: Read your promotion warrant. I'll bet it says something to the effect of "this appointee will observe and follow such orders and directives as may be given from time to time by superiors acting according to the rules and articles that govern the Armed Forces of the United States of America." Your day-to-day duties consist of following orders from superiors and issuing orders to subordinates. I would say that if you can't follow simple civilian attire regulations, you suck at your day-to-day duties. That is an glaring indication of your level of self-discipline. Wear whatever you want when you finally get thrown out on your ass for insubordination, but while you're representing me and the Marine Corps as a whole, follow the order. It's not about you, it's about the hundreds of thousands who've bled that have given you the opportunity to wear the uniform.

1HardDI
07-22-2009, 09:59 PM
owens2023,
I hate to say it pal but you also are one of those. HAHAHA Who the heck told you officers are expected to "dress up" in khaki shorts and a polo shirt? Are you kidding me? That's not dressing up, my friend. You might as well grab yourself a pocket protector while you are at it. HAHAHA

As an instructor at The Basic School, I can tell that the Commanding Officer tells Lt's that this is preciselythe way they are supposed to dress. And if you told him to your face that this is incorrect, I challenge you to inform the Colonel who wrote the regulation. And kudos to the Lt for having the self-discipline to follow the regulation. As for you, look in the mirror if you'd like to know who's responsible for the decline in discipline the Corps as a whole is experiencing.

RobotChicken
06-09-2013, 09:24 AM
As a Military Police Officer, my responsibility is to enforce all rules and regulations aboard the base which I am currently stationed. On a day to day basis, whether in a patrol car, or standing as a sentry at one of the gates, I am exposed to military and non-military violations of these rules and regulations.

Many regulations Marines are ordered to abide by may seem trivial in nature. One of these regulations I would like to point out is the proper liberty attire policy outlined in MCO P10120.28. If you read the order, (which all NCO's and unit leaders should), it outlines exactly what is authorized and not authorized to wear while on liberty or leave as a United State's Marine.

Many Marines in this era are not too fond of property liberty attire regulations, and actively display this. Marines attempt to come aboard the base wearing jeans with tears and holes in them. Marines wear white t-shirts, wife-beaters, earrings, baggy trousers with no belt, base ball caps canted to the side, or have no shave. When this happens, if they have the means to correct themselves, such as putting on a different shirt, or a belt, or fixing their baseball cap, we'll generally let them off with a warning. If it's a violation that cannot be fixed there on the spot, the Marine is issued an MOR (Minor Offense Report), and ordered to report to his/her 1stSgt or SgtMaj. the following day to explain why they were dressed the way they were.

What is amazing about this process is watching the Marine's reaction to being reprimanded, or being asked in a professional manner to fix him/her-self. More times than not, the Marine cops an attitude, and looks at the Military Police like THEY are the ones that are wrong. This reaction is difficult to comprehend, since the example and teaching of proper liberty attire is introduced as early as boot camp, and then re-enforced by units and Marine Corps instillations once the Marines hit the fleet. Every Marine Corps instillation I've visited has posters with picture examples of improper liberty attire placed outside of Marine Corps exchanges and other establishments located on the base. One would think the message is getting out there, but is it?

This next part is probably going to open a can of worms, but it needs to be addressed. While standing with the other gate sentries on a night of duty, we engaged in a conversation about proper liberty attire. I personally brought up the issue of female Marines and their liberty attire. After discussing the issue, we realized that none of us really knew the property liberty attire policy or regulations for female Marines. On a continual basis we would see couples drive up to the gate, with the female passenger in the vehicle dressed in a very immodest or revealing manner. It would always surprise us to discover that she was a United States Marine. From our first impression, she could have been a dependent wife, or a girlfriend. In my personal opinion, there is something wrong with this. If a male Marine is able to be distinguished out in town as being a Marine by his haircut or his liberty attire (provided he's wearing proper liberty attire), why is it that a female Marine is not? Before the retaliation begins, I will give you a perfect example in regards to what I write.

The same night of our conversation, we had a female Gunnery Sergeant drive up to the gate. I asked her where she was coming from, and she informed me she was coming from a bar out in town. While talking to her, I couldn't help but notice her attire. She was wearing a tube top, and very short shorts with high heels. I couldn't help but think to myself, "There's no way she's a gunny." Instantly my respect for her as a woman and a Marine dropped. When asked if she knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines, or Marines in general, she became very offended, and explained to us that female Marines are different than male Marines. She said that male Marines are recognizable out in town because of our hair cuts, therefore, we should be held to a higher standard in regards to the way they dress. However, she explained that it's hard for people to spot a female Marine because there's really nothing that distinguishes her from any other female, and therefore, it really doesn't matter what they wear. She summed up her argument with, "I'm a Gunnery Sergeant. I've been in the Marine Corps for 14 years, so I'll wear whatever I want."

For the remainder of the night, every female Marine that drove through the gate, I would stop and ask them if they knew the proper liberty attire regulations for female Marines. Some of them were dressed in ways that would make you blush, and others were dressed in a modest manner. Imagine my surprise when none of them knew.

After a bit of research, here's the conclusion: there is no liberty attire regulations for female Marines. There are simply proper liberty attire regulations for Marines. Here is an excerpt from the order:

"Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with the Marine Corps." MCO P10120.28 PAR 1005 CH 5 (a).

The important thing to remember here is that we are Marines. We set the standard for others to emulate. We are told on a continual basis that it doesn't matter whether we are male or female; we're all Marines. If this is the case, then we should all be held to the same standard, and that standard should be enforced. If a male Marine is recognized on liberty as being a Marine, there should be something that sets a female Marine apart from other females. We as NCO's and unit leaders need to understand the impact of we make when we choose to dress in an inappropriate manner. What happens when a junior Marine goes out to a club on liberty, and runs across his/her NCO or SNCO at the same club? What happens when he/she sees her/him dressed in a way that is sexually suggestive and immodest in nature? They will never look at that NCO or SNCO the same way, or with the same respect again, because they are seeing parts of their bodies that our usually covered in uniform.

In short, if you wouldn't wear it at the chow-hall, the exchange, church, or on base in front of your command, you shouldn't be wearing it out in town, in a nightclub, or in a bar.

I'd have to disagree with the Gunnery Sergeant I mentioned earlier. Marines are Marines, Gunnery Sergeant. How long we have been in, the rank on our collar, and whether we are females or males does not change the fact there are rules in regulations which we are expected to abide by. Especially if we are in a leadership position where we are supposed to set the example for our junior Marines to emulate.
It's time to stand up for what is right NCOs. Even if it is unpopular. The Marine Corps is not a popularity contest. It's an fighting organization steeped in pride and tradition. We are living up to the legacy of those that have passed before us on the battlefront. Let's not lose that discipline and legacy back here in the garrison. Semper Fidelis.
No Comment!! LOL!

Banned
06-10-2013, 06:02 AM
Yes, the shit that people get upset about in the Corps is amazing sometimes. Spagetti straps on a female give me a smile on my face, and possibly erection... not a sudden urge to dig through the uniform regs.

owens2023
06-17-2013, 04:29 PM
I enjoy seeing an attractive female just the same as the next guy. The issue here is regulations. We do not get to chose which regulations to follow and not to follow. As leaders we are expected to uphold all regulations no matter our opinion on them. Regulations are to be considered as direct orders and as Marines we are expected to and must have immediate obedience to orders. This is a volunteer force and no one was forced to sign on the dotted line. That means you chose to live this way and chose to "observe and follow such orders and directions as may be given from time to time by superiors acting in accordance to the rules and articles governing the discipline of the Armed Forces of the United States of America." - Sound familiar? Like I tell my Marines when they start to give flak about regulations that their NCOs and SNCOs are enforcing. I tell them that is fine not to like the regulations, but go and read your promotion warrant and tell me what you must do in regards to them.

Banned
06-18-2013, 11:22 PM
I enjoy seeing an attractive female just the same as the next guy. The issue here is regulations. We do not get to chose which regulations to follow and not to follow. As leaders we are expected to uphold all regulations no matter our opinion on them. Regulations are to be considered as direct orders and as Marines we are expected to and must have immediate obedience to orders. This is a volunteer force and no one was forced to sign on the dotted line. That means you chose to live this way and chose to "observe and follow such orders and directions as may be given from time to time by superiors acting in accordance to the rules and articles governing the discipline of the Armed Forces of the United States of America." - Sound familiar? Like I tell my Marines when they start to give flak about regulations that their NCOs and SNCOs are enforcing. I tell them that is fine not to like the regulations, but go and read your promotion warrant and tell me what you must do in regards to them.

PLEASE tell me you're not one of those guys who goes around the PX yelling at people for wearing sandals.

USMC0341
06-19-2013, 01:29 AM
I wear flip flops all the time...

owens2023
06-19-2013, 12:06 PM
PLEASE tell me you're not one of those guys who goes around the PX yelling at people for wearing sandals.

Actually, as long as they are not "shower shoes", flip flops are authorized for wear.

Caedoven
06-21-2013, 06:38 PM
Actually, as long as they are not "shower shoes", flip flops are authorized for wear.

Since when? Most orders leave a gray area - but in this case, the words "flip flop" are verbatim in the order...

owens2023
06-21-2013, 08:03 PM
Since when? Most orders leave a gray area - but in this case, the words "flip flop" are verbatim in the order...

It is a gray area and that is why it is up to the local command to determine. Flip flop in the order refers to the standard rubber sole and thong strap that we consider a shower shoe. Because flip flops have become a more mainstream clothing article, the order is kind of outdated in regards to terminology. I believe the PXs on base have authorized them for wear inside (Hawaii definitely, Pendleton I believe, Lejeune not sure), but I do know they are still banned from all chow halls. Again, local command makes the determination.

Juggs
06-21-2013, 08:09 PM
Rules are rules even if they're the most retarded rules you can even imagine. Such as a reflective belt in a combat zone. The restriction of flip flops is also stupid. You can actually still look decent and present able in flip flops.

Caedoven
06-21-2013, 08:28 PM
It is a gray area and that is why it is up to the local command to determine. Flip flop in the order refers to the standard rubber sole and thong strap that we consider a shower shoe. Because flip flops have become a more mainstream clothing article, the order is kind of outdated in regards to terminology. I believe the PXs on base have authorized them for wear inside (Hawaii definitely, Pendleton I believe, Lejeune not sure), but I do know they are still banned from all chow halls. Again, local command makes the determination.

It's not really a gray area. Again, the words "Flip Flop" are written verbatim in the order. Yes, the order is referring to the rubber, thong styled sandal. Are you saying that a hard plastic or leather coated flip flop is not a flip flop? It is built the same, goes through the same two toes, and makes the same noise when you walk. There can't be any reason one is disallowed that wouldn't make the other disallowed.

owens2023
06-21-2013, 09:06 PM
It's not really a gray area. Again, the words "Flip Flop" are written verbatim in the order. Yes, the order is referring to the rubber, thong styled sandal. Are you saying that a hard plastic or leather coated flip flop is not a flip flop? It is built the same, goes through the same two toes, and makes the same noise when you walk. There can't be any reason one is disallowed that wouldn't make the other disallowed.

I am not saying that a leather coated or hard plastic type is not a flip flop because it is. What I am saying is that the order says flip flop but IMPLIES a shower shoe because when the order was written, different variations of the flip flop were not really around or worn like they are today. That is why it is up to the local command to determine what is specifically authorized and what is not.

Caedoven
06-21-2013, 09:44 PM
I am not saying that a leather coated or hard plastic type is not a flip flop because it is. What I am saying is that the order says flip flop but IMPLIES a shower shoe because when the order was written, different variations of the flip flop were not really around or worn like they are today. That is why it is up to the local command to determine what is specifically authorized and what is not.

That's not true. Flip flops are as old as the end of WWII and by 2003 (when the original order was signed - not the current one with maradmins and almars released as recently as 2008) just about every variation you can think of was for sale. Even if what I just said was not true, a new variation of an inappropriate clothing article is not at the commands descretion until a change to the order comes about (a change to the order which may never even happen...).

USMC0341
06-22-2013, 01:16 AM
If it has a logo on it and is not a solid color it is good to go.

Caedoven
06-22-2013, 01:20 AM
If it has a logo on it and is not a solid color it is good to go.

Least compelling arguement on MC Times Forums ^

USMC0341
06-22-2013, 01:24 AM
Least compelling arguement on MC Times Forums ^

Wasn't an argument, but rather a statement.

Caedoven
06-22-2013, 02:03 AM
Wasn't an argument, but rather a statement.

A stated personal opinion which really, no offense to you, means nothing when concerned with orders.

E4RUMOR
06-22-2013, 05:23 AM
This forum hasn't been touched in four years. Someone must have been bored.

I may have been a little brash and zealous when I started this thread. However, elements of what I wrote still ring true.

One of the major qualms I take with regulations these days is whether they are, in fact, regulations or simply something that someone came up with on the fly.

I have a younger brother who has been in the Air Force for about eight years now. In his unit, they question anything they believe is something made up. They will straight up ask what order that direction came from... i.e., "You can't park here anymore", or "You can't have a pencil tucked in your blouse". There is a major difference between someone's personal preference, and what is actually an order.

Another example is when I was standing the gate for a Sobriety Check and had a Captain come through and tell me to button the sleeves of my Utility Uniform all the way. Last I checked, that's a personal preference. There is no order I know of that states you have to have your sleeves pulled to the tightest button hole and fastened.

As far as how females dress. My opinion hasn't changed. In fact, I'm more ardent about it considering the fact that I am a married man and have a daughter. I don't want my little girl or wife dressing in a way I would deem sexually suggestive. My wife has always been conscienteous about her appearance in not coming across as easy or as a slut. In other words, she dressed modestly while we dated, and still dresses that way. Why? Because even as a woman, she's damn well aware of the fact that how a woman dresses is a direct reflection of the image she is attempting to portray.

We're constantly getting barraged these days with classes about Sexual Assault. During a discussion with my brother, he informed me that during their Sexual Assault Prevention Training, one of the topics covered is how women in the military present themselves and dress while on liberty. It's called be sensible and responsible. Does it merit Sexual harrassment or assault? No. No matter how they are dressed, they still don't deserve to be assaulted or harrassed. But let's be grown ups and realize that men are men and women are women. In states of intoxication, the rules of attraction are always going to come out. It's probably not the brightest idea in the book to dress in a manner that is sexually suggestive and then surround yourself with a group of guys who are intoxicated....

So some of this stuff in the order has merit.. But some of these regulations need to change. And we need to really learn to decipher between what is being told, and what is actually the order.

RobotChicken
06-22-2013, 06:30 AM
"Next 'change' (Pun intended) is for the association of Marine strippers to be allowed to pole dance outside their barracks in the Spirit of PT!!"

USMC0341
06-22-2013, 09:40 AM
A stated personal opinion which really, no offense to you, means nothing when concerned with orders.

Yes, you are correct.

Caedoven
06-22-2013, 02:27 PM
This forum hasn't been touched in four years. Someone must have been bored.

...

So some of this stuff in the order has merit.. But some of these regulations need to change. And we need to really learn to decipher between what is being told, and what is actually the order.

Yes, someone must have gotten bored, but I'm not mad at them! Great conversation going on here between Owens2023 and I.

I cannot disagree with what you've said above regarding sexual assault. Further, I certainly agree with you that individuals must know the difference between personal preference, and an order. But, at the same time questioning what we say is an order of 'personal preference' is not our place while being ordered - and should be done with tact at a later time. Perhaps there is a reason for the order (verbal or written) and the individual issuing that order is not required to break the entire order down for you. Discipline dictates you act on the order.

With that being said, I can't say is agree or disagree with your last statement. Which regulations do you believe should change? I can assure you that these regulations are not something that someone simply 'came up with on the fly.' Most all orders and directives are written in the blood of your brothers and sister, in the trust of your taxpayers dollars, and in keeping of the consistency of discipline expected of a United States Marine.

E4RUMOR
06-22-2013, 10:31 PM
What regulations do I believe should be changed?

Ok, for starters, tucking in shirts that have tails. When and where rainbow Physical Training Attire can be worn. Having hands in pockets while in the Service Utility Uniform. Not being allowed to wear jeans that have frays or tears at the bottom of the pant legs, shaving on the weekend or while on liberty / leave. These are just a few areas.

I was reading in another forum a few days ago concerning liberty attire. A very valid point was made... While in another country, Marines were afforded the opportunity to have liberty. However, before being allowed to head out for liberty, all the First Sergeants got together and ordered their Marines to have a fresh haircut before heading out. Furthermore, they had to be in proper liberty attire (Tucked in shirt with collar, etc.,).

This is in a foreign country, mind you. Now the point was brought up that we receive annual training every year regarding Terrorism Awareness, and we are told to maintain a low profile. We're supposed to "blend in" with the local populace. You're not supposed to wear a uniform on a plane while traveling, or attire that blasts to everyone you're a member of the Armed Forces... So how the hell does a screaming high and tight, polo shirt tucked in a pair of khaki pants with a belt, and a freshly shaved face blend in with society? In all reality, we're being preached at to do one thing, and then being instructed to do the exact opposite.

Frayed bottoms on jeans does not detract from good order and discipline. Furthermore, if the Marine Corps has a problem with it, they need to get into MCX and Navy Exchange's ass and tell them to stop selling shit that goes against our liberty attire order. Technically, per the base orders I have been too, dependents are also subject to a dress code while on base that is similar to a Marine's dress code. So the whole excuse that "unauthorized" liberty attire products are for dependents doesn't fly.

Marines shave 5 days out of the week while at work. Yes, we are Marines 24/7, subject to recall at any time.. got it. Not shaving on the weekend gives the face a break, and hell... you look like the rest of society... i.e., blending in and keeping a low profile.

For the record, I see all manner of Marines who have pretty much said "F*&k tucking in shirts with tails". This is Colonels on down. They just need to change the order, because no one is really following it these days.

Technically per the order, we aren't supposed to be rocking high and tight hair cuts. It's against the order. The haircut is supposed to be faded and the edges of the hair are supposed to be clipped. Furthermore, if the order states that side-burns cannot go past the orface of the ear, this would insinuate that hair is authorized to be grown to that length as long as it is kept neat.

The haircut thing is a perfect example of whether or not we are actually following regulation or someone's interpretation.

Keep in mind, my gripes are just personal opinions. I still enforce and follow the current standard. But after ten years, the Kool-aide doesn't tast the same anymore.

Caedoven
06-23-2013, 01:45 AM
What regulations do I believe should be changed?

...

Keep in mind, my gripes are just personal opinions. I still enforce and follow the current standard. But after ten years, the Kool-aide doesn't tast the same anymore.

Nicely said. One thing to consider is, these things you've listed are not far off from customs seen in a professional environment in the civilian world. Having your hands in your pockets simply looks unprofessional and undisciplined; military or not.

On the subject of PT gear - although the civilian sector does not give a crap about what you wear on your off time, I suppose the Marine Corps wants their members to look well put together and setting the standard as a model citizen. It's a pain to have to throw on some khaki shorts or jeans to go somewhere, but now that I think of it... who walks around in PT gear and who wants to walk around in PT gear? The same reason you wouldn't meet your soon-to-be father-in-law or go to dinner and a movie in PT gear is the same reason you shouldn't want to lounge around the exchange or mall in PT gear. I agree this may be somewhat personal preference and would like to hear what other individuals have to say about why it is 'ordered' that we look so well put together out in town. Personally, I don't have the desire to walk around in basketball shorts and a tank top...

Continuance of PT gear - I would certainly like to see something black and white regarding mix/match rainbow/Green on green PT gear. All too often I see Marines wearing green top and civilian bottoms or civilian bottoms with the green top. There can certainly be arguements to support that such wear is unauthorized... but it's not spelled out clearly.

I haven't seen it written in the order (1020.34G) that you cannot have fraying at the bottom of your jeans either... just cannot wear them if they are the ripped/torn style. Although I do remember my 1stSgt in boot camp telling us we could not have fraying... so I IP'd my civilian trousers when I left bootcamp!

Shaving on the weekends is deadful, I do admit. My face NEEDS a rest. I take advantage of the days when I do not leave my house, you can bet that!

I don't see much in the order that would prohibit a high and tight. All high and tights that I've ever seen have been faded and the edges of the hair have been clipped. The fading/edging requirement is meant to do away with a drop-off barracks cut. Sideburns that cannot grow below the orifice means simple that... From that point on, it must be shaven like the rest of your face... Sure, hair can grow above that, but per the order it should not be more than 1/8 of an inch fully extended at any time.

The order does need good updating though, not just a maradmin to make a few changes. How long have black/green socks been against the order but you're allowed to wear the ones you own 'until they are unservicable.' They came out with that in 2003, yet Marines can easily buy and wear them and get away with it because of that clause. With that, the exchange needs to stop selling black and green boot socks! I know we have Marines working at the PX as their MOS and they should be screening items for sale that Marines are not allowed to be wearing.

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 01:23 AM
Here's the issue I have with the enforcement of these standards...

A lot of you don't actually know them. The order does not ban flip flops, it only says you can't wear them on ship. It does spell out mixing green on green and rainbow PT gear, saying you can wear military undergarments for PT. At 29 Palms you can wear PT gear to the gas station as long as you pay at the pump and don't go in the store, yet people freak out about it when they see it. The Low Reg as it is requested at barber shops is a regulation haircut, per the order.

Yet nobody knows any of this because we operate on these witch doctor regulations rather than, you know, READING THE ORDER.

Caedoven
06-24-2013, 02:36 AM
Here's the issue I have with the enforcement of these standards...

...

Yet nobody knows any of this because we operate on these witch doctor regulations rather than, you know, READING THE ORDER.

While it's explaining what you can and cannot wear aboard ship, it goes into detailed guidelines about what civilian attire actually is. If it broke it down in another subcategory, do you think that it would only apply to that category? C'mon...

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 02:48 AM
While it's explaining what you can and cannot wear aboard ship, it goes into detailed guidelines about what civilian attire actually is. If it broke it down in another subcategory, do you think that it would only apply to that category? C'mon...

You need to learn how to read bud. It never says you cannot wear Flip Flops OR Shower Shoes unless you are aboard ship. It does give the authority to local commanders to make those decisions, and in almost every case the cheap, plastic shower shoes are banned. But the Marine Corps itself does not ban them unless on ship.

In short, you've been wrong the entire thread while chastising others for not following the order.

The order breaks down civilian attire requirements for several different areas:

Within the United States, Outside the United States, Aboard Ship or Aircraft, Special Assignments/Requirements, and the White House. Each is a completely separate section, with completely separate requirements.

Caedoven
06-24-2013, 03:13 AM
You need to learn how to read bud. It never says you cannot wear Flip Flops OR Shower Shoes unless you are aboard ship. It does give the authority to local commanders to make those decisions, and in almost every case the cheap, plastic shower shoes are banned. But the Marine Corps itself does not ban them unless on ship.

In short, you've been wrong the entire thread while chastising others for not following the order.

The order breaks down civilian attire requirements for several different areas:

Within the United States, Outside the United States, Aboard Ship or Aircraft, Special Assignments/Requirements, and the White House. Each is a completely separate section, with completely separate requirements.

Then tell me what it says you can and cannot wear on special assignments and at the white house. Common sense would dictate that you read above, where appropriate civilian attire has been broken down for you in the previous few subcategories. It doesn't break it down in every category, and it shouldn't need to be. In the end, it does primarily fall down on the clarity in the local commanders orders. About 99% of the local orders ban flip flops - but how clearly it explains what that actually is, is where the arguements comes from.

Great post/perspective though...

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 04:01 AM
2. Within the United States
>Ch 5 a. Marines are associated and identified with the Marine Corps in and
out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing
is worn, Marines will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are
conservative and commensurate with the high standards traditionally
associated with the Marine Corps. Revealing clothing (i.e. clothing that
exposes midriff, the buttocks, excessive amounts of chest/cleavage) or items
designed to be worn as undergarments (and worn exposed) are not authorized
for civilian attire, while on or off duty. When wearing trousers with
civilian attire, a belt must be worn (unless there are no belt loops).
Trousers will be worn at the waist. Undergarments, when worn, will not be
visible, except as when the undershirt is exposed in a manner similar to the
service “C” uniform. Civilian attire, including undershirts, should be worn
as appropriate to the occasion (i.e. bathing suit/bikini appropriate to the
beach/pool but not to the Marine Corps Exchange). Commanders are charged
with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. No
eccentricities of dress will be permitted. When onboard a military
installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with
established norms. MARADMIN 504/07 & MARADMIN 322/05
b. Marines may wear civilian clothing when in an off-duty status, when
directed by competent authority, and as otherwise authorized herein. Within
the confines of a military base or a DoD installation, civilian clothing will
be worn subject to local regulations.
c. When civilian clothing has been authorized by competent authority for
wear in a duty status in lieu of a uniform, the civilian clothing will be of
the same comparable degree of formality as the uniform prescribed for such
duty. Standards of dress and appearance will be conservative and meet the
same high standards established for personnel in uniform.
d. The wear of clothing articles not specifically designed to be
normally worn as headgear (e.g. bandannas, doo rags) is prohibited.
e. No part of a prescribed uniform, except those items not exclusively
military in character, will be worn with civilian clothing.

These are the regulations pertaining to Civilian attire inside the US, and quite frankly I think the best guidance is to put your best foot forward when in public. Don't wear offensive T-Shirts, don't dress or act like a jerk, and respect the generations of Marines who earned the reputation they did by presenting themselves well.

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 04:07 AM
Then tell me what it says you can and cannot wear on special assignments and at the white house. Common sense would dictate that you read above, where appropriate civilian attire has been broken down for you in the previous few subcategories. It doesn't break it down in every category, and it shouldn't need to be. In the end, it does primarily fall down on the clarity in the local commanders orders. About 99% of the local orders ban flip flops - but how clearly it explains what that actually is, is where the arguements comes from.

Great post/perspective though...


5. Special Assignments/Requirements
a. Marines in special billets whose offices are separate from other
naval activities, and whose duties require them to associate principally with
civilians, may wear civilian clothing when so stated in their orders or as
otherwise authorized by the CMC.
b. Officers under instruction at civilian educational institutions and
in civilian industrial establishments may wear civilian clothing for such
duty.


6. White House. Civilian attire may not be worn to the White House, except
as follows:
a. While attending or participating in conferences, working group
sessions, etc., at the Executive Office Building when the President or his
senior advisers will not be present.
b. When explicitly called for in an invitation.
c. When an assigned billet requires civilian attire be worn.
d. While visiting the White House as a tourist.

I can't speak for every installation, but of the 3 I've been at (Lejeune, Quantico, 29 Palms) they allowed Flip Flops, not shower shoes.

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 04:08 AM
(4) Footwear. Except when swimwear is worn as
prescribed elsewhere in this Order, footwear must be worn.
Open-toed sandals or flip flops may be worn with or without
socks as long as they are neat, clean, and commensurate with
good taste. However, rubber shower shoes will not be worn in
public.

This is straight from the Camp Lejeune base order...

E4RUMOR
06-24-2013, 05:36 AM
Here's the issue I have with the enforcement of these standards...

A lot of you don't actually know them. The order does not ban flip flops, it only says you can't wear them on ship. It does spell out mixing green on green and rainbow PT gear, saying you can wear military undergarments for PT. At 29 Palms you can wear PT gear to the gas station as long as you pay at the pump and don't go in the store, yet people freak out about it when they see it. The Low Reg as it is requested at barber shops is a regulation haircut, per the order.

Yet nobody knows any of this because we operate on these witch doctor regulations rather than, you know, READING THE ORDER.

It's not that we are not aware what the order states, or that we do not read. Quite the contrary. I can look up the order for proper liberty attire and the MARADMINS which provide clarification concerning things not mentioned in the order.

The problem is interpretation of the order. The order needs to be written in a way which eliminates any gray areas, and so that it is not subject to individual Commanders' or senior Staff NCO interpretations.

The order should be clear and concise, providing specific direction for any category which is considered questionable. The subject of flip flops is a perfect example.

With that being said, Commanders should also have this whole authority to add further restrictions to orders revoked. An order established by Headquarters Marine Corps should suffice for all personnel "in every clime and place".

I think it is important to note, however, the wearing of civilian clothing on liberty is a PRIVILEGE. With that being said, violators should be forced to wear their Service uniforms for a week or month until they learn to get with the program.

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 05:43 AM
I think it is important to note, however, the wearing of civilian clothing on liberty is a PRIVILEGE. With that being said, violators should be forced to wear their Service uniforms for a week or month until they learn to get with the program.

Most important part of this... We could be in Chucks all day every day if the CMC said so.


It's not that we are not aware what the order states, or that we do not read. Quite the contrary. I can look up the order for proper liberty attire and the MARADMINS which provide clarification concerning things not mentioned in the order.

I'm sorry, but there is no gray. It either says something or it doesn't. You inferring anything is entirely your opinion. Shower Shoes(unless on ship) are not regulated by Marine Corps Order. Base Order? Yup, probably and IMO rightfully so. Therein lies the problem, people try to expand reasonable policies into the tucking your t-shirt into your cargo pants retardation that this organization is currently experiencing.

E4RUMOR
06-24-2013, 06:02 AM
When referring to gray areas: What does the Marine Corps consider as conservative? Your definition and mine may differ.

What is considered excessive amount of chest / cleavage?

The subject of PT gear came up. The III MEF Commander issued an order which states that PT gear (non military) can be worn in every establishment with the exception of the Chapel. As long as it is neat and in good taste.....

E4RUMOR
06-24-2013, 06:07 AM
And that's my point. There should be zero tolerance enforcing opinions.

E4RUMOR
06-24-2013, 06:15 AM
When referring to gray areas: What does the Marine Corps consider as conservative? Your definition and mine may differ.

What is considered excessive amount of chest / cleavage?

The subject of PT gear came up. The III MEF Commander issued an order which states that PT gear (non military) can be worn in every establishment with the exception of the Chapel. As long as it is neat and in good taste.....

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 06:16 AM
Well, if you know the order and have the balls to stick to your guns there really isn't anything that some moron can do to stop you from entering a facility in the prescribed attire. Any tolerance for enforcing rules that are not laid out is entirely in the ignorance of the individual being corrected.

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 06:19 AM
When referring to gray areas: What does the Marine Corps consider as conservative? Your definition and mine may differ.

What is considered excessive amount of chest / cleavage?

The subject of PT gear came up. The III MEF Commander issued an order which states that PT gear (non military) can be worn in every establishment with the exception of the Chapel. As long as it is neat and in good taste.....

In this case might makes right, unfortunate as it is...

That's the way the Marine Corps works, and quite frankly I have a hard time believing that 9/10 a guy is going to kick a girl out of an establishment unless she has them out there like freaking eggs on a plate.

E4RUMOR
06-24-2013, 06:25 AM
Well it's easy to stick to guns depending on whom you are dealing with. How about a 1st Sergeant whose veins are popping out of his neck? Even if you are right, if he tells you to leave a place because he believes you are wrong, do you advise per the order they are actually incorrect, and stay? Or do you stick to your guns and deal with the wrath?

This coincides with my remark about people enforcing their own interpretations... And why it should not be authorized. I've known very few high level Staff NCOs who take correction well... No matter how professional, accurate, or tactful you may be.

RobotChicken
06-24-2013, 06:43 AM
In this case might makes right, unfortunate as it is...

That's the way the Marine Corps works, and quite frankly I have a hard time believing that 9/10 a guy is going to kick a girl out of an establishment unless she has them out there like freaking eggs on a plate.

"ASK her how much? Then stand by for the hoots and laughter Telling them too get a Room!! LOL! (Play with the big dogs)"

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 06:46 AM
Well it's easy to stick to guns depending on whom you are dealing with. How about a 1st Sergeant whose veins are popping out of his neck? Even if you are right, if he tells you to leave a place because he believes you are wrong, do you advise per the order they are actually incorrect, and stay? Or do you stick to your guns and deal with the wrath?

This coincides with my remark about people enforcing their own interpretations... And why it should not be authorized. I've known very few high level Staff NCOs who take correction well... No matter how professional, accurate, or tactful you may be.

And you are absolutely right on that... I've lived on both sides of it. I went straight from a Lance Corporal SAW gunner to a lost as heck Second Lieutenant. I never really went at anybody who was in the wrong correcting me as a LCpl, but I've been able to inject some common sense on the dark side. My answer is that I really don't have an answer to the issue of a junior Marine who isn't doing anything wrong getting blasted by a SNCO... Somebody smarter than me has to figure that one out.

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 06:51 AM
Yup... you can fix things on your level which is nice, but you can't fix everything else.

E4RUMOR
06-24-2013, 06:55 AM
Have you been corrected for something while in Civilian attire by someone you can reasonably figure is probably a senior SNCO? If so, how did you handle the situation?

E4RUMOR
06-24-2013, 06:57 AM
Guess that brass makes the difference.

Nuckin Futs
06-24-2013, 07:05 AM
Yup... you can fix things on your level which is nice, but you can't fix everything else.

Ender
07-18-2013, 02:54 PM
Have you been corrected for something while in Civilian attire by someone you can reasonably figure is probably a senior SNCO? If so, how did you handle the situation?

Normally I ignore them... in the same way I ignore the rest of the public. Once you go off base, you must play by society's rules. Nowhere in society is it appropriate to walk up to complete strangers and either A) "freakin' daggone devil dog" them or B) begin inquiring as to their place of employment, job position, and boss's name without any sort of introduction, small talk, or social cues. All too often, Marines forget that manners and social etiquette still apply in this day and age. I don't think these sort of manners should be limited to off base relations though. A handshake and polite introduction should be a part of everyone's daily interactions and precede any sort of negative or positive dealings.

Nuckin Futs
07-21-2013, 12:21 AM
Normally I ignore them... in the same way I ignore the rest of the public. Once you go off base, you must play by society's rules. Nowhere in society is it appropriate to walk up to complete strangers and either A) "freakin' daggone devil dog" them or B) begin inquiring as to their place of employment, job position, and boss's name without any sort of introduction, small talk, or social cues. All too often, Marines forget that manners and social etiquette still apply in this day and age. I don't think these sort of manners should be limited to off base relations though. A handshake and polite introduction should be a part of everyone's daily interactions and precede any sort of negative or positive dealings.

That's really just not how it works man. You are accountable for your actions on and off base, Marine Corps Orders don't stop at the front gate. I agree that them making a scene like an idiot is inappropriate, but they are well within their rights to politely correct Marines who are not living up to the dress standards out in town. Orders are not suggestions.

Ender
07-21-2013, 03:28 AM
Polite corrections I can totally understand, but how often is that the case and is that really what we're talking about here? Rarely does the interaction ever start with a "How do you do?" and end with "You know you're not supposed to be doing that."

Typically it's, "Devil Dog, go home and change your freakin daggone clothes to something appropriate" or "Go home and shave your friggin face" and it continues until they get their way. The problem here is that while orders and regulations are expected to be followed in every clime and place, currently none exist that allow Marines to obstruct the cash flow of a business, harass customers, or cause a scene. There is simply no legal precedent that makes them exempt from these very simple social rules and civilian legal code.

For example: I never shave on the weekends. I do still leave my house to run errrands, eat dinner, and such. Typically I try to avoid all places and towns that Marines are likely to frequent, I dress in normal society accepted attire, and wear my hair relatively long (yet still within regulations). Most passersby would have no idea I was a Marine. Some places such as Wal-mart make this impossible however when everyone is assumed to be a Marine. On more than one occasion when the person was not happy with my non-response and walking away, they followed me and continued their verbal correction/harassment. Everytime I've politely notified a department or store manager that one of their customers is harassing another patron. Every single one of these managers understood what was happening, yet they also understood that while the Marine Corps is an important part of their business due to its close proximity to the base, a lawsuit filed by a customer is far worse than asking one to cease their harassment or leave.

Harassment is harassment is harassment. The law does not distinguish between a SNCO belegerantly correcting a Marine in Wal-mart and a creep following someone around the store verbally berating them. Fortunately none of these interactions have gone any further than this. These Marines knew when they lost the battle and continued on their merry way whether they were happy with the outcome or not. There's more than enough legal cases that would support involvement from law enforcement should a situation like this continue to escallate. You are correct though, Marine Corps orders apply whether on or off base, but too many senior Marines fail to understand that they are not the ONLY regulations that apply. Criminal and civil law of the local, state, and federal governments will always trump Marine Corps order.

Now this still means that the Marine Corps can charge me for violating regulations even while in the midst of a civil lawsuit off base. But the likelihood of it ever going that far is almost non-existent. Simple put, politeness and understanding boundaries are a much more professional way of conducting business.

Nuckin Futs
07-22-2013, 05:23 AM
Simple put, politeness and understanding boundaries are a much more professional way of conducting business.

Which is both true, and a totally different issue than dress code regulations. From what I've seen most of the really big altercations don't get that way without some belligerence on the part of the Marines. Anecdotal, sure, but that has been my experience.