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SeaLawyer
05-06-2019, 11:15 AM
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/05/05/meet-the-fort-meade-trans-women-fighting-the-militarys-ban/

Great! Now we're calling it gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder.

Key word: Disorder!!! This is considered a pre-existing condition which the VA should not compensate. We can't have a bunch of MASH episodes with Klinger running around trying to figure out what sex they want or just trying to get a discharge for VA benefits.

As long as they are recognizing it as a disorder, let's treat it as such as ban them from the military as they have banned other disorders from military service. This is no exception!

FLAPS
05-06-2019, 02:53 PM
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/05/05/meet-the-fort-meade-trans-women-fighting-the-militarys-ban/

Great! Now we're calling it gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder.

Key word: Disorder!!! This is considered a pre-existing condition which the VA should not compensate. We can't have a bunch of MASH episodes with Klinger running around trying to figure out what sex they want or just trying to get a discharge for VA benefits.

As long as they are recognizing it as a disorder, let's treat it as such as ban them from the military as they have banned other disorders from military service. This is no exception!

Klinger was laughed at for trying to get kicked out this way. Today Klinger would be celebrated with his own 'month,' and anyone laughing would be labeled as a bigot.

SeaLawyer
05-06-2019, 03:05 PM
Klinger was laughed at for trying to get kicked out this way. Today Klinger would be celebrated with his own 'month,' and anyone laughing would be labeled as a bigot.

How true that is!!!

Mjölnir
05-07-2019, 02:58 AM
Klinger was laughed at for trying to get kicked out this way. Today Klinger would be celebrated with his own 'month,' and anyone laughing would be labeled as a bigot.

I got the impression no one at the 4077th paid him much mind ... thinking he was 1. full of crap, 2. he still did his job.

meatbringer
05-07-2019, 10:47 AM
Here we go again...

You guys do realize that Kristin Beck, one of the Seal Team 6 badasses, is transgender, right? Go tell one of the Seals who took out Bin Laden that they should never have served and were unfit for duty because you guys refuse to educate yourself on a subject that makes you uncomfortable.

SeaLawyer
05-07-2019, 11:18 AM
Here we go again...

You guys do realize that Kristin Beck, one of the Seal Team 6 badasses, is transgender, right? Go tell one of the Seals who took out Bin Laden that they should never have served and were unfit for duty because you guys refuse to educate yourself on a subject that makes you uncomfortable.

Who ever said it made me uncomfortable? I'm merely pointing out the fact it's considered a "dysphoria" and "disorder." Like many other disqualifying disorders (As mentioned with ADHD) we turn away highly potential candidates because of this disability yet we're willing to make an exception for people with gender identity disorder and/or gender dysphoria?

My comfort factor is not an issue here. I work with a couple of transgenders as we speak (type) and they do a fabulous job. I also have a good rapport with both of them. This is merely a point of pre-existing conditions.

FLAPS
05-07-2019, 11:33 AM
Here we go again...

You guys do realize that Kristin Beck, one of the Seal Team 6 badasses, is transgender, right? Go tell one of the Seals who took out Bin Laden that they should never have served and were unfit for duty because you guys refuse to educate yourself on a subject that makes you uncomfortable.

From Wikipedia:

"Beck retired from the Navy in 2011 with final rating as Senior Chief Special Warfare Operator when she began transitioning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitioning_(transgender)) by dressing as a woman."

In other words, Christopher Beck (aka "Kristin") was NOT displaying symptoms of his mental disorder until after leaving the military.

FLAPS
05-07-2019, 11:37 AM
I got the impression no one at the 4077th paid him much mind ... thinking he was 1. full of crap, 2. he still did his job.

Yes, I thought I pointed that out. When M.A.S.H. was being filmed, Klinger's role was to make audiences laugh. There is no way on Earth Klinger's character would be allowed to exist in a 2019 version of M.A.S.H.

FLAPS
05-07-2019, 11:46 AM
you guys refuse to educate yourself on a subject that makes you uncomfortable.

Here's your shot meatbringer. If a person is born as a male and later changes his name to a female's, starts wearing female clothing, and insists he is now a female, is this person pretending to be a female, or is this person now an actual female?

Can you educate me, or are you going to insist that I read a book or otherwise find the answer somewhere else. If you do the later, then I guess it's safe to assume that you don't really know the answer.

meatbringer
05-07-2019, 02:28 PM
From Wikipedia:

"Beck retired from the Navy in 2011 with final rating as Senior Chief Special Warfare Operator when she began transitioning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitioning_(transgender)) by dressing as a woman."

In other words, Christopher Beck (aka "Kristin") was NOT displaying symptoms of his mental disorder until after leaving the military.




So you seriously think that Beck simply suddenly decided that he wanted to transition after leaving service? Wow, you once again display your ignorance. If you actually knew about Kristin Beck, then you would know that, as a male, he felt trapped in the wrong body since grade school. He didn't suddenly decide or "display symptoms of a mental disorder" right after leaving service. He had always felt that way but chose not to transition until after retirement! They even made a documentary about it! Christ.... There are interviews where Beck even talks about this.

Nice quick Wikipedia reference, though. Lol! Like I've said about a hundred times to you, freaking educate yourself before spouting garbage.

meatbringer
05-07-2019, 02:35 PM
Here's your shot meatbringer. If a person is born as a male and later changes his name to a female's, starts wearing female clothing, and insists he is now a female, is this person pretending to be a female, or is this person now an actual female?

Can you educate me, or are you going to insist that I read a book or otherwise find the answer somewhere else. If you do the later, then I guess it's safe to assume that you don't really know the answer.

My previous post/rebuttal should more than answer this as well. Kristen Beck has been transgender since before puberty. Beck served honorably as a freaking highly decorated Navy Seal and accomplished more than you ever will, before retiring and deciding to transition afterwards. As a transgender person, Beck was more than mentally capable of serving in extremely stressful and dangerous situations that most of us couldn't even fathom.

It's becoming very clear that there is no educating you.

Mjölnir
05-08-2019, 10:16 AM
Who ever said it made me uncomfortable? I'm merely pointing out the fact it's considered a "dysphoria" and "disorder." Like many other disqualifying disorders (As mentioned with ADHD) we turn away highly potential candidates because of this disability yet we're willing to make an exception for people with gender identity disorder and/or gender dysphoria?

My comfort factor is not an issue here. I work with a couple of transgenders as we speak (type) and they do a fabulous job. I also have a good rapport with both of them. This is merely a point of pre-existing conditions.

For military entrance, many "disorders" are disqualifying; previous exhibitions of some of these if under control and 'sufficient time has passed since manifestation' are allowable ... not just an exception for gender dysphoria etc.

For disorders exhibited after accession, it comes down to if the issue is manageable within the bounds of military service (PTSD, anxiety disorder, some personality disorders etc.)

My concern with gender dysphoria and the recent back and forth on the policy is that the policy reversal does not seem to be based on either medical advice (AMA and military surgeon generals) nor the advice of the service chiefs, CJCS nor then-SECDEF. Granted, it is POTUSs prerogative to go against their advice (elections have consequences) ... but when there is unanimous advice from the service chiefs that the issue is not a hindrance to readiness, a cost issue (we spend more on Viagra) etc. it seems like it is just a play for the base vice the best interests of readiness, lethality etc.

FLAPS
05-08-2019, 11:04 AM
So you seriously think that Beck simply suddenly decided that he wanted to transition after leaving service?

Of course not, but he probably didn't make it a barracks discussion either.



Wow, you once again display your ignorance.

GFYS.


If you actually knew about Kristin Beck, then you would know that, as a male, he felt trapped in the wrong body since grade school.

I know he FELT like he was in the wrong body. Isn't that the DISORDER part of this issue?


He didn't suddenly decide or "display symptoms of a mental disorder" right after leaving service.

So, he was DISPLAYING symptoms (i.e., dressing, acting like a woman) while still in the service? Wrong. DISPLAYING something is NOT synonymous with FEELING something. Don't be ignorant.


He had always felt that way but chose not to transition until after retirement!

I think we established this.


They even made a documentary about it! Christ.... There are interviews where Beck even talks about this.

OK, so what? Are we debating the disorder?


Nice quick Wikipedia reference, though. Lol! Like I've said about a hundred times to you, freaking educate yourself before spouting garbage.

If I am going to quote Wikipedia, I tend to carefully only quote the facts. Are you debating what I actually chose to quote as false? I didn't think so.

Listen, you and I have different opinions. So what. I don't go around harassing people about them. You are obviously very close to this topic. Do you have friends or family that are trans? I'm sure they are nice people, and I am not attacking them personally.

I've never met a trans (that I know of), but I am certain I will feel uncomfortable around them...at least initially. Could my experiences change my views? Certainly, as they have with a multitude of other experiences over my adult life. Until then, I can have my opinions.

Pay close attention to Mjölnir's posts. He manages to articulate his position without attacking the recipient of the message. You, on the other hand will never make a persuasive argument while calling people names (you're ignorant, you're ignorant, you're ignorant..blah, blah, blah). Typical behavior of a growing swath of society...to emotionally lash out when someone doesn't agree.

FLAPS
05-08-2019, 11:15 AM
As a transgender person, Beck was more than mentally capable of serving in extremely stressful and dangerous situations that most of us couldn't even fathom.

AS A SEAL, was Beck going through any post-transition related hormonal treatments while "serving in extremely stressful and dangerous situations that most of us couldn't even fathom"?

Mjölnir
05-08-2019, 11:53 AM
So, he was DISPLAYING symptoms (i.e., dressing, acting like a woman) while still in the service? Wrong. DISPLAYING something is NOT synonymous with FEELING something. Don't be ignorant.

In her book, she states she started cross dressing, living as a female in her off duty hours for the last couple of years of her career and that some of the other SeALs knew ... didn't care.

FWIW, I have met Kristin Beck a couple of times, not at any type of military event, we frequent the same Home Depot in southern Maryland. She's very nice, we swapped some stories about SeALs and Recon, gender discussions never came up.

Mjölnir
05-08-2019, 11:56 AM
AS A SEAL, was Beck going through any post-transition related hormonal treatments while "serving in extremely stressful and dangerous situations that most of us couldn't even fathom"?

Its in her book, no hormone therapy ... started a year or two after she retired. Was receiving counseling related to the issue for the last 5 or so years.

meatbringer
05-08-2019, 12:34 PM
Of course not, but he probably didn't make it a barracks discussion either.
GFYS.
I know he FELT like he was in the wrong body. Isn't that the DISORDER part of this issue?
So, he was DISPLAYING symptoms (i.e., dressing, acting like a woman) while still in the service? Wrong. DISPLAYING something is NOT synonymous with FEELING something. Don't be ignorant.
I think we established this.
OK, so what? Are we debating the disorder?
If I am going to quote Wikipedia, I tend to carefully only quote the facts. Are you debating what I actually chose to quote as false? I didn't think so.

Listen, you and I have different opinions. So what. I don't go around harassing people about them. You are obviously very close to this topic. Do you have friends or family that are trans? I'm sure they are nice people, and I am not attacking them personally.

I've never met a trans (that I know of), but I am certain I will feel uncomfortable around them...at least initially. Could my experiences change my views? Certainly, as they have with a multitude of other experiences over my adult life. Until then, I can have my opinions.

Pay close attention to Mjölnir's posts. He manages to articulate his position without attacking the recipient of the message. You, on the other hand will never make a persuasive argument while calling people names (you're ignorant, you're ignorant, you're ignorant..blah, blah, blah). Typical behavior of a growing swath of society...to emotionally lash out when someone doesn't agree.

Once again, Beck was transgender during enlistment with no issues and displayed and felt symptoms (his cross dressing and feelings regarding his gender). So now your "argument" is "...feelings and symptoms are different." Your "argument" gets weaker and weaker with each post while we dismantle it. Also, there are 3 trans members in my mx group who undergo different treatments depending on their individual needs, and they are all superb performers and have zero issues. You repeatedly refuse to acknowledge any of this.

You continually display a blatant disregard for the science and research behind it, all the while shouting "Science is real! Typical leftist hypocrisy! Snowflake blah blah blah...." Also, when you are directed toward relevant topics/data points regarding the subject that you could easily research to educate yourself, you refuse to acknowledge it, stating "Why read something I don't have interest in?" Furthermore, when a number of people have politely dismantled your "logic" and obvious misunderstanding on the matter discussed, your only rebuttal has been "No one will change my mind!"

You have repeatedly displayed ignorance on this matter in two separate threads pertaining to this same subject. It is the definition of ignorance. You are just uncomfortable about the subject, which you have admitted multiple times, so you refuse to listen to reason, logic, or science, and opt to just let your fear drive your narrow views and opinion on the matter.

FLAPS
05-08-2019, 07:56 PM
Also, there are 3 trans members in my mx group who undergo different treatments depending on their individual needs, and they are all superb performers and have zero issues. You repeatedly refuse to acknowledge any of this.

Great, I'm sure they're nice people.

meatbringer
05-09-2019, 09:14 AM
Great, I'm sure they're nice people.

Great rebuttal!

So, we know that transgender people can, and have, served honorably without any notable issues before, during, and after transitions, treatment, therapy, etc. Also, as Mjolnir pointed out, there have not been any issues financially or from a personnel stance, according to the different branches and various levels of leadership. Heck, we spend more on Viagra for vets. I guess if god wanted people to have sex, then they wouldn't need pills... Anyways, although you have never met a scary transgender person, there are plenty of us who have, and have even worked with them in the military. I've even had a hand in a couple of cases where the individual wanted to transition either just on paper or to undergo hormone treatment. Guess what? No issues. They execute their duties with zero problem and are valuable members of the squadron. We've also listed the many cases and symptoms that can contribute to the various reasons as to why someone would want to transition...all scientifically proven and backed up with research. If someone proves that they have the mental capacity to perform, then there is no problem.

So what was the basis of your argument/views again? Oh yeah, "They make me uncomfortable," and "Dudes have a schlong."

FLAPS
05-09-2019, 11:03 AM
Great rebuttal!

Thanks, I was being sincere. Can you answer this question? Do you believe a person born as a male but is now a transgender female is now an actual female or pretending to be a female?

SeaLawyer
05-09-2019, 11:35 AM
Was Chelsea Manning a high functioning soldier or was his/her decision to leak classified information part of a mental reasoning disorder? In other words, was some of his/her decision-making impacted by gender dysphoria?

Mjölnir
05-09-2019, 12:15 PM
Was Chelsea Manning a high functioning soldier or was his/her decision to leak classified information part of a mental reasoning disorder? In other words, was some of his/her decision-making impacted by gender dysphoria?

IMO, I don't think Manning's decision to leak classified was directly linked to gender dysphoria. Undoubtedly anxiety, stress, anger over treatment etc. related to the gender dysphoria were factors ... along that line ... any decision making (good or bad) is impacted by the 'baggage' we bring along with us: I rigidly enforced the requirement for aircrew on the EP-3 to opcheck parachutes before each flight (something that many had never seen) ... part of my decision was based on my experience as a parachutist and knowing how much can go wrong with a parachute and how easy it is to check.

FWIW, Manning was never a high functioning Soldier ie. never really rated more than average etc.

John Walker was what could be classified as a "high functioning" Sailor (Chief Petty Officer, Chief Warrant Officer), was liked by many of is co-workers, yet he had a liking for expensive toys, booze and womanizing. Some of his decision making was related to his accumulation of debt related to behavior that many romanticize.

meatbringer
05-09-2019, 02:04 PM
Thanks, I was being sincere. Can you answer this question? Do you believe a person born as a male but is now a transgender female is now an actual female or pretending to be a female?

Interesting question, and a bit more complex than you realize. As previously stated, there are a myriad of reasons that one chooses to transition. For example, there are those who are born with external female genitals but lack the inner organs of a woman. Some are born with both genitalia and "ambiguous genitalia." Some children are born as one gender, but later develop genetically or hormonally as the opposite gender. Other people are born with male genitalia but have the hormonal levels of a female, and vise versa. There are much more instances where the lines would be blurred, which have been mentioned multiple times in the two threads regarding this subject. You know, that pesky science you keep mentioning but refuse to look into at all to better understand the topic.

It all depends on the many variables associated with transgender cases. It's not that simple... Who am I to tell someone that they are a man because they "have a schlong," yet they may have the inner organs of a woman, developed as a female during puberty, or were actually born with the hormonal levels or genetics of a female? People like you only see in black and white because you refuse to approach such topics with an open mind or the willingness to learn about it. Instead, you just say "dudes have a schlong" and "there is no changing my mind!"

Imagine having the inner organs of a man, testosterone levels of a man that constantly increase as you mature, the genetics of a man, being attracted only to women.....but you have a vagina...or both a penis and a vagina. What then? I guess you're just a chick, right? You must be a crazy person, according to you.

FLAPS
05-09-2019, 03:13 PM
Interesting question, and a bit more complex than you realize. As previously stated, there are a myriad of reasons that one chooses to transition. For example, there are those who are born with external female genitals but lack the inner organs of a woman. Some are born with both genitalia and "ambiguous genitalia." Some children are born as one gender, but later develop genetically or hormonally as the opposite gender. Other people are born with male genitalia but have the hormonal levels of a female, and vise versa. There are much more instances where the lines would be blurred, which have been mentioned multiple times in the two threads regarding this subject. You know, that pesky science you keep mentioning but refuse to look into at all to better understand the topic.

It all depends on the many variables associated with transgender cases. It's not that simple... Who am I to tell someone that they are a man because they "have a schlong," yet they may have the inner organs of a woman, developed as a female during puberty, or were actually born with the hormonal levels or genetics of a female? People like you only see in black and white because you refuse to approach such topics with an open mind or the willingness to learn about it. Instead, you just say "dudes have a schlong" and "there is no changing my mind!"

Imagine having the inner organs of a man, testosterone levels of a man that constantly increase as you mature, the genetics of a man, being attracted only to women.....but you have a vagina...or both a penis and a vagina. What then? I guess you're just a chick, right? You must be a crazy person, according to you.

Jesus Christ, dude, it was a simple effing question to ascertain your opinion. Can't you state your opinion, in simple general terms, instead of vomiting three entire paragraphs of garbage? And by the way, if a male is born with female hormones, then why the necessity of hormone treatment to become a woman? Let's try this again:

In THIS scenario: A male is born as a male, has male-only hormones, organs, etc. (keeping this simple for you), but DECIDES later on that he wants to be a female and thus becomes a transgender female, IN YOUR OPINION, is this person now an actual female or is this person pretending to be female?

FLAPS
05-09-2019, 03:39 PM
FEEL GOOD STORY

I was born as a black child and adopted by a loving Jewish couple and raised in a wonderful Jewish community, went to Jewish schools, etc. My adoptive parents didn't have a lot of money, so I enrolled in a local community college. During my first semester I was approached by a friendly black student who, along with his girlfriend, persuaded me to attend a Black Student Union meeting. I figured, hey, this is something new so I'll try it out.

I went to two meetings, but something just didn't feel right. I realized that I just didn't relate to the BSU members, in any way, shape or form. In fact, it was this experience that made me realize that I feel like a Caucasian, Jewish man. I know I don't "look" like one, but deep in my heart I know this is who/what I really am.

I eventually sought council from my parents and friends and told them that I wanted to be recognized as a white Jewish man, because I know that deep, deep in my heart this is what I am. My friends laughed at this idea and my parents were a little concerned at first, but they all came around and respected my wishes.

When my second semester started I told my classmates and African American friends that I identified as a white Jewish man. Most laughed at me, but surprisingly a few didn't. One of those few people was named Meatbringer. He's a bigshot USAF MXG leader (MXG Chief, Sq/CC or MOO...not sure)...refers to others as HIS people, HIS group, so I know HE is important (until he retires, that is).

Anywho...Meatbringer and I would become friends but he made it clear that he can't because of HIS rank/position in the USAF. I'm thinking that I am not in the USAF, but ok, I'll let this go. He's a big shot anyway.

Friends or not, Meatbringer did put his arm around my shoulder and tell me that "yes, you ARE a white Jewish man. There's a lot of science behind what I'm saying, but I won't bore you with the multiple paragraphs that I'm prepared to show you. Just trust me....and I'll see you at next Month's Jewish American luncheon. It's 'highly encouraged" for all to attend anyway."

The End

SeaLawyer
05-09-2019, 04:44 PM
FEEL GOOD STORY

I was born as a black child and adopted by a loving Jewish couple and raised in a wonderful Jewish community, went to Jewish schools, etc. My adoptive parents didn't have a lot of money, so I enrolled in a local community college. During my first semester I was approached by a friendly black student who, along with his girlfriend, persuaded me to attend a Black Student Union meeting. I figured, hey, this is something new so I'll try it out.

I went to two meetings, but something just didn't feel right. I realized that I just didn't relate to the BSU members, in any way, shape or form. In fact, it was this experience that made me realize that I feel like a Caucasian, Jewish man. I know I don't "look" like one, but deep in my heart I know this is who/what I really am.

I eventually sought council from my parents and friends and told them that I wanted to be recognized as a white Jewish man, because I know that deep, deep in my heart this is what I am. My friends laughed at this idea and my parents were a little concerned at first, but they all came around and respected my wishes.

When my second semester started I told my classmates and African American friends that I identified as a white Jewish man. Most laughed at me, but surprisingly a few didn't. One of those few people was named Meatbringer. He's a bigshot USAF MXG leader (MXG Chief, Sq/CC or MOO...not sure)...refers to others as HIS people, HIS group, so I know HE is important (until he retires, that is).

Anywho...Meatbringer and I would become friends but he made it clear that he can't because of HIS rank/position in the USAF. I'm thinking that I am not in the USAF, but ok, I'll let this go. He's a big shot anyway.

Friends or not, Meatbringer did put his arm around my shoulder and tell me that "yes, you ARE a white Jewish man. There's a lot of science behind what I'm saying, but I won't bore you with the multiple paragraphs that I'm prepared to show you. Just trust me....and I'll see you at next Month's Jewish American luncheon. It's 'highly encouraged" for all to attend anyway."

The End

OMG!!! I'm dying!!! ROFLMAO

meatbringer
05-10-2019, 12:15 AM
Jesus Christ, dude, it was a simple effing question to ascertain your opinion. Can't you state your opinion, in simple general terms, instead of vomiting three entire paragraphs of garbage? And by the way, if a male is born with female hormones, then why the necessity of hormone treatment to become a woman? Let's try this again:

In THIS scenario: A male is born as a male, has male-only hormones, organs, etc. (keeping this simple for you), but DECIDES later on that he wants to be a female and thus becomes a transgender female, IN YOUR OPINION, is this person now an actual female or is this person pretending to be female?

The purpose the "three paragraphs of garbage" was to illustrate how complex the issue can be and the reality behind it. So sorry it was a bit much for you.

Your question? I don't think anyone is "pretending" to be another gender. Fist of all, why would someone pretend to be another gender for no reason other than to be treated like a crazy person by such fine, open-minded and accepting people such as yourself? This is literally the same argument that was brought up by people like you about gays years ago, that they were "pretending," it was/is a choice, or are mentally ill.

Here is a very insightful article from Harvard touching on the subject. It actually addresses exactly what you are asking about: whether instances like you mention are people merely "pretending." Wanna know what they are finding via scientific research? People who decide to transition are born with a brain more similar to the gender in which they choose to identify with, as opposed to the gender that they were born. So, (to keep it simple for you) people with schlongs are sometimes born with a brain that functions/resembles that of someone who has a vagina!

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Rainmaker
05-10-2019, 02:26 AM
So, (to keep it simple for you) people with schlongs are sometimes born with a brain that functions/resembles that of someone who has a vagina!

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Rainmaker tried to understand this blog article from the career student at Hahvahd. But, unfortunately I only have two CCAF degrees & 30 years experience. So I couldn't make heads or tails of it.....How do you supposed to know if the girl in your squad gots an innie or an outtie?

FLAPS
05-10-2019, 10:37 AM
The purpose the "three paragraphs of garbage" was to illustrate how complex the issue can be and the reality behind it. So sorry it was a bit much for you.

Your question? I don't think anyone is "pretending" to be another gender. Fist of all, why would someone pretend to be another gender for no reason other than to be treated like a crazy person by such fine, open-minded and accepting people such as yourself? This is literally the same argument that was brought up by people like you about gays years ago, that they were "pretending," it was/is a choice, or are mentally ill.

Here is a very insightful article from Harvard touching on the subject. It actually addresses exactly what you are asking about: whether instances like you mention are people merely "pretending." Wanna know what they are finding via scientific research? People who decide to transition are born with a brain more similar to the gender in which they choose to identify with, as opposed to the gender that they were born. So, (to keep it simple for you) people with schlongs are sometimes born with a brain that functions/resembles that of someone who has a vagina!

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/


I will check out your article, but let's get one thing clear concerning "...people like you"? You have no idea who/what I believe or support outside of the trans or CCAF discussion. I've worked with gays/lesbians (in AGSs, flying sqs, EMSs, MXSs, AMXSs, MXGs, etc) long before and after DADT, have a few gay/lesbian friends that I've known for many years, and even know of one gay person who thinks trans people should be gay/lesbian, not trans. Imagine that? How dare THOSE people!

Perhaps YOU should do a little research on your own to LEARN that there are people like me who have varied opinions depending on the subject. The world isn't as black and white as Fox people vs MSNBC people....or perhaps "People like you" refuse to believe that. :)

SeaLawyer
05-10-2019, 11:18 AM
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/05/08/chelsea-manning-says-shell-never-testify-seeks-release/?utm_source=clavis

"She also said she is suffering physical problems related with inadequate follow-up care to gender-reassignment surgery."

Another reason trans-genders shouldn't be allowed to serve... Will He/She/It try to claim VA disability for this now? If He/She/It were still on active duty, the time spent in medical could be exhaustive on the troops having to pick up the slack.

FLAPS
05-10-2019, 12:23 PM
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/05/08/chelsea-manning-says-shell-never-testify-seeks-release/?utm_source=clavis

"She also said she is suffering physical problems related with inadequate follow-up care to gender-reassignment surgery."

Another reason trans-genders shouldn't be allowed to serve... Will He/She/It try to claim VA disability for this now? If He/She/It were still on active duty, the time spent in medical could be exhaustive on the troops having to pick up the slack.

You know, if he/she had only been a SEAL, he/she would be bravely, valiantly performing missions that most of us hate mongering, bigoted, intolerant, fascist, deplorable Christian conservative, Rush-loving trans-phobes couldn't even fathom!

meatbringer
05-10-2019, 12:29 PM
I will check out your article, but let's get one thing clear concerning "...people like you"? You have no idea who/what I believe or support outside of the trans or CCAF discussion. I've worked with gays/lesbians (in AGSs, flying sqs, EMSs, MXSs, AMXSs, MXGs, etc) long before and after DADT, have a few gay/lesbian friends that I've known for many years, and even know of one gay person who thinks trans people should be gay/lesbian, not trans. Imagine that? How dare THOSE people!

Perhaps YOU should do a little research on your own to LEARN that there are people like me who have varied opinions depending on the subject. The world isn't as black and white as Fox people vs MSNBC people....or perhaps "People like you" refuse to believe that. :)

Sorry you were so offended. I merely meant people who are uninformed in the matter, uncomfortable by transgender, automatically label them as "pretending" or mentally unstable, and people who refuse to educate themselves regarding the subject. You have admitted to all of these multiple times now. I never brought up anything else you mentioned.

meatbringer
05-10-2019, 12:38 PM
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/05/08/chelsea-manning-says-shell-never-testify-seeks-release/?utm_source=clavis

"She also said she is suffering physical problems related with inadequate follow-up care to gender-reassignment surgery."

Another reason trans-genders shouldn't be allowed to serve... Will He/She/It try to claim VA disability for this now? If He/She/It were still on active duty, the time spent in medical could be exhaustive on the troops having to pick up the slack.

If it were any other kind of surgery would you have a problem with it? What does the type of surgery matter if the issue lies with inadequate care or follow ups? I know of about 100 fat rednecks who claim disability because they never took care of themselves throughout their career due to eating garbage, not exercising, excessive drinking or smoking, and just shitty practices in general. So now they have bad knees, bad backs, breathing issues, you name it... Are you seriously worried about one transgender person who might run into issues and someone having to pick up the slack? Meanwhile, we're sitting at about 60% deployable rate at one of our units due to health related waivers, failed PT tests, sleep apnea, etc.

But yeah, let's worry about the .0001% transgender troops who may have some issues. lol Christ.....

SeaLawyer
05-10-2019, 01:24 PM
If it were any other kind of surgery would you have a problem with it? What does the type of surgery matter if the issue lies with inadequate care or follow ups? I know of about 100 fat rednecks who claim disability because they never took care of themselves throughout their career due to eating garbage, not exercising, excessive drinking or smoking, and just shitty practices in general. So now they have bad knees, bad backs, breathing issues, you name it... Are you seriously worried about one transgender person who might run into issues and someone having to pick up the slack? Meanwhile, we're sitting at about 60% deployable rate at one of our units due to health related waivers, failed PT tests, sleep apnea, etc.

But yeah, let's worry about the .0001% transgender troops who may have some issues. lol Christ.....

OK, MeatFlinger, let's take a step back and revisit your scientific/genetically-born hypothesis. If what you're saying is true, then it's a pre-existing condition--like my ADHD scenario I mentioned.

Personally, I could care less what gender they choose as long as they can perform the job and not falter in the line of duty.

Setting your VA Rednecks aside, it's a gamed system and we know it. IMO this just opens the doors to a new wave of issues not just for the military but for the VA as well. In short, the military just isn't a place for people suffering from a gender-identity crisis. It's a distraction to all the others serving whether it's a distraction to the LGBT or not.

meatbringer
05-10-2019, 01:49 PM
OK, MeatFlinger, let's take a step back and revisit your scientific/genetically-born hypothesis. If what you're saying is true, then it's a pre-existing condition--like my ADHD scenario I mentioned.

Personally, I could care less what gender they choose as long as they can perform the job and not falter in the line of duty.

Setting your VA Rednecks aside, it's a gamed system and we know it. IMO this just opens the doors to a new wave of issues not just for the military but for the VA as well. In short, the military just isn't a place for people suffering from a gender-identity crisis. It's a distraction to all the others serving whether it's a distraction to the LGBT or not.

"Meatfinger..." Classic. So what transgender people can't perform their duties? So far, as has been mentioned by myself and others on this forum, they can perform their jobs just as much as anyone else serving. Don't even take my word for it, just listen to each branch's leadership and advisors. Seriously, listen to the leadership throughout the entire military who have repeatedly voiced how there is no issue.

"...isn't a place for people suffering a gender-identity crisis." Why not? Does it interfere with their ability to serve? If so, then treat them like anyone else who can't perform their duties due to a condition, like with ADHD or anything else. However, as has been proven in our country and dozens of others on the planet, many transgender can serve just as well as you or I. What distraction is it causing? Please explain the distraction it's causing.

The bottom line is this: They have served with no notable issues in our military and have for years in other militaries around the world. Also, our own leadership and advisors agree that they serve without causing a "distraction" or hindering the mission.

If your only concern with them serving is the off chance that one of the fraction of a percent of transgender serving will take advantage or game the system, then you may want to shift your concern to something that is actually a problem in the military. That's your concern? Out of the hundreds of thousands who take advantage now, your concern is that a fraction of a percent of the force might scam some disability?

SeaLawyer
05-10-2019, 02:11 PM
"...isn't a place for people suffering a gender-identity crisis." Why not? Does it interfere with their ability to serve? If so, then treat them like anyone else who can't perform their duties due to a condition, like with ADHD or anything else.

It has to be "controlled". Clearly, it's not controlled if they are still having issues.



The bottom line is this: They have served with no notable issues in our military and have for years in other militaries around the world. Also, our own leadership and advisors agree that they serve without causing a "distraction" or hindering the mission.

Wrong!!!:
https://www.justsecurity.org/62128/untangling-issues-transgender-military-litigation/

Show me that ALL LGBTs have served with no notable issues and I'll show you proof there are some that haven't. Likewise, I'll introduce you to a couple of leaders/advisors that have encountered some that served with "distraction".


If your only concern with them serving is the off chance that one of the fraction of a percent of transgender serving will take advantage or game the system, then you may want to shift your concern to something that is actually a problem in the military. That's your concern? Out of the hundreds of thousands who take advantage now, your concern is that a fraction of a percent of the force might scam some disability?

I'd like to see the data you are using--and not impromptu spewing--that supports your claim: "It's only a fraction." Clearly you must have some readily available stats to say that; otherwise, you are just spitting out ambiguities.

You're killing me "Arby" (Oh, and BTW... WE have the meats... not you)!

Do you call a transgender sir or ma'am? It's one or the other. I--on the other hand--am a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Can you help me solve that one scientifically???

meatbringer
05-10-2019, 02:51 PM
It has to be "controlled". Clearly, it's not controlled if they are still having issues.



Wrong!!!:
https://www.justsecurity.org/62128/untangling-issues-transgender-military-litigation/

Show me that ALL LGBTs have served with no notable issues and I'll show you proof there are some that haven't. Likewise, I'll introduce you to a couple of leaders/advisors that have encountered some that served with "distraction".



I'd like to see the data you are using--and not impromptu spewing--that supports your claim: "It's only a fraction." Clearly you must have some readily available stats to say that; otherwise, you are just spitting out ambiguities.

You're killing me "Arby" (Oh, and BTW... WE have the meats... not you)!

Do you call a transgender sir or ma'am? It's one or the other. I--on the other hand--am a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Can you help me solve that one scientifically???

Lame and ridiculous Arby jokes and jokes of being a lesbian trapped in a man's body. Gee, I'm so glad you are being mature and taking this seriously.

So your defense is that not all LGBTs serve without issues? Cool, how about the thousands of straight males who present problems and distractions?

And yes, a fraction, due to the fact that only a fraction of a percent of the force is comprised of transgender folks. Of that minuscule portion of the force, there aren't that many problems. In fact, of the 6 billion of the budget reserved for military healthcare, a whopping .04 percent is actually used toward treating some transgender folks. This small percent of the budget will mostly go toward those who take hormone therapy, and only 2% of the transgender military population will actually request or undergo gender reassignment surgery. Heck, as pointed out by Mjolnir, the costs for Viagra for vets exceeds what we pay for trans. I don't see you complaining about that, though.

You can look up anything that I have just mentioned easily. Additionally, you can also look up how inclusion has been supported by Sec Defs, AF Sec, the Palm Center letter written and signed by 57 retired generals, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, old Sec Def Ashton Carter, Chiefs of the Army, Navy, and AF, incoming Commandant of the Coast Guard, studies from RAND, the Palm Center, data from the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on..... Also, you can look up the dozens of countries around the world who have allowed trans to serve since 1974. No big deal.

Everything I have mentioned in this post is a verifiable fact. Keep making Arby jokes and shit, though. You are really smart.

SeaLawyer
05-10-2019, 03:07 PM
And yes, a fraction, due to the fact that only a fraction of a percent of the force is comprised of transgender folks. Of that minuscule portion of the force, there aren't that many problems. In fact, of the 6 billion of the budget reserved for military healthcare, a whopping .04 percent is actually used toward treating some transgender folks. This small percent of the budget will mostly go toward those who take hormone therapy, and only 2% of the transgender military population will actually request or undergo gender reassignment surgery.


Heck, as pointed out by Mjolnir, the costs for Viagra for vets exceeds what we pay for trans. I don't see you complaining about that, though.

Your old lady isn't complaining either... Viagara or no Viagara; although, she's a two-bagger over the head, I prefer the Viagara to help her out.


You can look up anything that I have just mentioned easily.

As you can, mine!


Additionally, you can also look up how inclusion has been supported by Sec Defs, AF Sec, the Palm Center letter written and signed by 57 retired generals, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, old Sec Def Ashton Carter, Chiefs of the Army, Navy, and AF, incoming Commandant of the Coast Guard, studies from RAND, the Palm Center, data from the Pentagon, and the list goes on and on..... Also, you can look up the dozens of countries around the world who have allowed trans to serve since 1974. No big deal.

Third world country militaries? Your shit is weaker than wet toilet paper!


Everything I have mentioned in this post is a verifiable fact. Keep making Arby jokes and shit, though. You are really smart.

With a name like MeatBringer, you must be trying to self-satisfy your limited relevance! You try so hard to persuade us on your point of view but won't flex in our direction as we have given you some credit.

Have a great Navy day MeatFlinger!

FLAPS
05-10-2019, 06:52 PM
Meanwhile, we're sitting at about 60% deployable rate at one of our units due to health related waivers, failed PT tests, sleep apnea, etc.

Oh cool....SORTS data. Umm....and what unit are you in? Are you the MXG Superintendent? Better yet, the MXG/CD or CC?

SeaLawyer
05-10-2019, 07:01 PM
Oh cool....SORTS data. Umm....and what unit are you in? Are you the MXG Superintendent? Better yet, the MXG/CD or CC?

No data at all FLAPS. Just generic spewing as usual. MeatFlinger can't post factual data so--until then--I just consider it an opinion. Typical left-wing crying.

FLAPS
05-10-2019, 07:05 PM
Also, our own leadership and advisors agree that they serve without causing a "distraction" or hindering the mission.
How many of these male leaders or advisors went home with who they thought was a hot chick, only to discover what looked like a chick who just came out of post-IED emergency groin surgery, thus resulting in the dude's (the authentic one) inability to sleep for weeks due to the nightmares? Worse yet, how many of these were Egress technicians, EOD techs, pilots or doctors who can't seem now to focus on their jobs?

How many of these female leaders or advisors thought they married prince charming, only to discover on honeymoon night that her sweet Irish lover is sporting a transplanted, monster mechanized bazooka that's 18 shades darker than the rest of his body and looks like it was sewn on in a 6th grade Home Economics class gone bad? Traumatized for life I say she is, and probably has to take anti-anxiety meds so she doesn't crash her C-17 prior to being MEB'd with an 80% disability rating.

FLAPS
05-10-2019, 08:26 PM
No data at all FLAPS. Just generic spewing as usual. MeatFlinger can't post factual data so--until then--I just consider it an opinion. Typical left-wing crying.

Oh, SORTS data is the status of resources and training for each unit. It's actually classified as SECRET and includes how many people are ineligible to deploy due to dental or medical issues. However, Meatbringer smartly keeps his unit ID anonymous so he doesn't share this classified data with the public.

Mjölnir
05-10-2019, 11:40 PM
Let's refrain from personal insults.

meatbringer
05-11-2019, 12:01 AM
No data at all FLAPS. Just generic spewing as usual. MeatFlinger can't post factual data so--until then--I just consider it an opinion. Typical left-wing crying.

I posted names and titles of the military leads who have gone on record saying that there have been no noteworthy issues in them serving. I have posted factual statistics that can easily be verified pertaining to the numbers of transgender serving. I have posted factual numbers regarding the budget, and the minuscule amount that goes towards trans treatment and therapy. I have cited scientific findings about the various contributing factors to gender identity issues, and new findings showing how many trans are born with brains and brain activity that coincides with the gender they want to transition to.

"...generic spewing" and "left-wing crying." Yup, facts are left-wing crying. What of any of what I just mentioned is not factual data? The forum you are on right now - the AF times - even did a story about the budget and compared costs. I would say unbelievable, but I'm not surprised.

meatbringer
05-11-2019, 12:06 AM
Your old lady isn't complaining either... Viagara or no Viagara; although, she's a two-bagger over the head, I prefer the Viagara to help her out.

As you can, mine!

Third world country militaries? Your shit is weaker than wet toilet paper!

With a name like MeatBringer, you must be trying to self-satisfy your limited relevance! You try so hard to persuade us on your point of view but won't flex in our direction as we have given you some credit.

Have a great Navy day MeatFlinger!

Wow, wife jokes now. I'm so hurt and astonished! You are really good at this and make so many good points. Third world countries? I had no idea that Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Sweden, the U.K., and New Zealand we all third world countries!

You are really smart, and this alone proves it. I now know exactly what kind of person I am dealing with here. Way to show your hand, genius.

meatbringer
05-11-2019, 12:08 AM
Let's refrain from personal insults.

Are you really that surprised? This is the typical behavior from people like these guys: Ignore the facts, rebuke science, ignore the experts, refuse to learn anything, and just spew lame jokes and personal insults.

meatbringer
05-11-2019, 12:14 AM
How many of these male leaders or advisors went home with who they thought was a hot chick, only to discover what looked like a chick who just came out of post-IED emergency groin surgery, thus resulting in the dude's (the authentic one) inability to sleep for weeks due to the nightmares? Worse yet, how many of these were Egress technicians, EOD techs, pilots or doctors who can't seem now to focus on their jobs?

How many of these female leaders or advisors thought they married prince charming, only to discover on honeymoon night that her sweet Irish lover is sporting a transplanted, monster mechanized bazooka that's 18 shades darker than the rest of his body and looks like it was sewn on in a 6th grade Home Economics class gone bad? Traumatized for life I say she is, and probably has to take anti-anxiety meds so she doesn't crash her C-17 prior to being MEB'd with an 80% disability rating.

Nice to see that you have given up entirely on learning anything or trying to mask your ignorance, and have fully dedicated yourself to childish jokes and posts in order to try and hide the fact that you haven't had a leg to stand on this entire time.

garhkal
05-12-2019, 03:32 AM
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/05/05/meet-the-fort-meade-trans-women-fighting-the-militarys-ban/

Great! Now we're calling it gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder.

Key word: Disorder!!! This is considered a pre-existing condition which the VA should not compensate. We can't have a bunch of MASH episodes with Klinger running around trying to figure out what sex they want or just trying to get a discharge for VA benefits.

As long as they are recognizing it as a disorder, let's treat it as such as ban them from the military as they have banned other disorders from military service. This is no exception!

I've LONG felt, since it IS a mental disorder, it should be disqualifying..


Klinger was laughed at for trying to get kicked out this way. Today Klinger would be celebrated with his own 'month,' and anyone laughing would be labeled as a bigot.

And if you didn't help celebrate "it" you'd get docked on your EO line for your eval..


Who ever said it made me uncomfortable? I'm merely pointing out the fact it's considered a "dysphoria" and "disorder." Like many other disqualifying disorders (As mentioned with ADHD) we turn away highly potential candidates because of this disability yet we're willing to make an exception for people with gender identity disorder and/or gender dysphoria?

My comfort factor is not an issue here. I work with a couple of transgenders as we speak (type) and they do a fabulous job. I also have a good rapport with both of them. This is merely a point of pre-existing conditions.

Just like i know 3 folk who got booted out after being diagnozed COLOR Blind. And another who got diagnosed with COPD (didn't get caught during his MEPS). There's Quite a long list of things that disqualify or get someone booted out, but doesn't make said person a BAD person..


we spend more on Viagra)

I've never understood why we even SPEND a single dime on viagra..


You know, if he/she had only been a SEAL, he/she would be bravely, valiantly performing missions that most of us hate mongering, bigoted, intolerant, fascist, deplorable Christian conservative, Rush-loving trans-phobes couldn't even fathom!

DO you honestly think someone going through transgender re-assignment could STILL SERVE as a seal, what with hormone therapy and other things being needed??

meatbringer
05-12-2019, 04:12 AM
I've LONG felt, since it IS a mental disorder, it should be disqualifying..



And if you didn't help celebrate "it" you'd get docked on your EO line for your eval..

Sleep apnea is a disorder, diabetes is a disorder, MS is a disorder, alcoholism is a disorder, PTSD, anxiety disorders, manic depression, thyroid disorders, T-balance disorders, etc.... All allowed and treated in the military. There are people even living with HIV in the military. Just as the experts and our military leadership have repeatedly voiced, if you can perform your duties, meet the standards, and are mentally capable of serving, then what's the issue? As I previously stated, I think religious people are mentally unstable - believing in a magical sky man who controls everything, despite zero evidence and logic to support it? Mental disorder. Delusional.

Really? People getting docked for not celebrating it? I have opted out of almost every extra function such as Asian heritage luncheons, Black History Month luncheon, and all that stuff...Never been docked or missed out on an opportunity for not "celebrating" anything.

FLAPS
05-12-2019, 10:27 AM
DO you honestly think someone going through transgender re-assignment could STILL SERVE as a seal, what with hormone therapy and other things being needed??

No, I honestly don't.

FLAPS
05-12-2019, 10:52 AM
As I previously stated, I think religious people are mentally unstable - believing in a magical sky man who controls everything, despite zero evidence and logic to support it? Mental disorder. Delusional.

THIS is why debating with you a useless. You're a classic hypocrite. HOW do you know each individual on this Earth has zero evidence or logic to support their own belief in a God...any God. YOU have already decided that believing in a God is a "mental disorder" and that they're "delusional'" all because of YOUR personal beliefs.

I think it's more appropriate to label those delusional who actually BELIEVE that by chance, and chance alone that a human being can be created with a sperm and egg, then mature to the point where it can figure out how to fly to a moon or live on a space station. Science and God/Spirituality aren't mutually exclusive, unless you talk to the Meatbringer's of the world.

By the way, the absence of understanding and scientific evidence (by TODAY'S knowledge/standards of measurement) isn't conclusive of anything. If time travel was possible, try going back and explaining to George Washington, or better yet, ANY scientist on 1780's Earth how an iPhone will work (electricity, internet, phone, apps, etc). They'd confidently label you as having a "mental disorder" and being "delusional." The bottom line is that there are plenty of events and experiences in this world that the smartest scientists admittedly have zero understanding or explanation of.

Listen, this isn't a debate on God, but rather a perfect example of "I'm right, your wrong because of my limited beliefs."

Here's a book for you. It's about "delusional" people:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EBGTMZ8/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

FLAPS
05-12-2019, 11:29 AM
Sleep apnea is a disorder, diabetes is a disorder, MS is a disorder, alcoholism is a disorder, PTSD, anxiety disorders, manic depression, thyroid disorders, T-balance disorders, etc.... All allowed and treated in the military.

No, they aren't ALL allowed. You're starting to make me believe that you aren't in ANY actual leadership position, but rather just a regular, uninformed worker-bee (common folk in civ terms), or dare I suggest....a TRANS worker-bee.

NOW, here are the facts. If the conditions require on-going, continued specialized treatment that make you ineligible to deploy for an indefinite period of time, you will be MEB'd and separated. No ands, ifs or butts about it.

meatbringer
05-12-2019, 11:48 AM
No, they aren't ALL allowed. You're starting to make me believe that you aren't in ANY actual leadership position, but rather just a regular, uninformed worker-bee (common folk in civ terms), or dare I suggest....a TRANS worker-bee.

NOW, here are the facts. If the conditions require on-going, continued specialized treatment that make you ineligible to deploy for an indefinite period of time, you will be MEB'd and separated. No ands, ifs or butts about it.

I realize this isn't a debate about god, as I was merely using that example to express a point. It obviously went over your head.

Sorry, you are wrong. I've worked with numerous people who served while living with the mentioned disorders: MS, diabetes, alcoholism, anxiety disorders... One individual I worked with years ago at Luke would have seizures, another had depression and some mental issues, resulting in him having to constantly be on mood medication. All these people were treated, evaluated, and deemed fit enough to serve. I'll admit that some of the cases made them not suitable for certain positions, but they were allowed to serve regardless, and performed just fine. Sleep Apnea? C'mon, you know damn well that so many fat people in service have sleep apnea. It's ridiculous. If you refuse to accept any of what I've mentioned (as I'm sure you will), please feel free to simply google any of the aforementioned disorders and "military service." You will find plenty of stories, examples, and even some data about people serving with the disorders.

And yes, there is a great deal of truth to what you mentioned about ongoing treatment and being able to deploy, etc; however, it is handled on a case by case basis. There are people who have served for years under treatment, all depending on the severity of their disorder, their job, and many other factors involved.

Once again, things aren't that black and white. If you had ever served in a leadership role, you should understand this. For example, I worked with a TSgt who had MS and was on constant medication and would have issues if he didn't take care of himself properly. He was an instructor for four years, so deploying wasn't an issue. He then went on to Holloman and worked as a flight chief to finish his career. Another person I know, who still serves today, has diabetes. He cannot deploy or PCS to an installation without certain medical accommodations readily available. Not only does he still serve, but he is a fast burner and made SMSgt extremely early. So, as you can see, you are wrong...again....shocking.

And not that I care, but just to clarify, I'm a prior enlisted who served as a flight chief before I commissioned. I now serve as a sq MOO, and am currently deployed.

Got anymore dumb jokes or ridiculous, pointless stories to share? Maybe a rant about "snowflakes" or "left wing nonsense?" Lol

LogDog
05-12-2019, 05:57 PM
While people have personal opinions as to who can and can't serve, the decision still resides with the DoD. This link, DoD6130.03 (https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/613003p.pdf?ver=2018-05-04-113917-883), identifies the conditions that disqualifies a person from enlisting in the military. On page 4, it also states:
This issuance does not apply to any medical issue associated with gender dysphoria or gender transition; such medical accession standards are addressed in separate guidance. Any questions regarding such medical accessions standards or procedures should be directed to the Commander, U.S. Military Entrance Processing Command (USMEPCOM). [/I]


The separate guidance, mentioned above, can be viewed at this link, DTM-19-004 (https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dtm/DTM-19-004.pdf?ver=2019-03-13-103259-670).

garhkal
05-12-2019, 07:03 PM
Sleep apnea is a disorder, diabetes is a disorder, MS is a disorder, alcoholism is a disorder, PTSD, anxiety disorders, manic depression, thyroid disorders, T-balance disorders, etc.... All allowed and treated in the military.No, they aren't ALL allowed. You're starting to make me believe that you aren't in ANY actual leadership position, but rather just a regular, uninformed worker-bee (common folk in civ terms), or dare I suggest....a TRANS worker-bee.

NOW, here are the facts. If the conditions require on-going, continued specialized treatment that make you ineligible to deploy for an indefinite period of time, you will be MEB'd and separated. No ands, ifs or butts about it.

Meet. Check out https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html.

Roughly 3/5th's down the page, it flat out says "The following conditions may disqualify you for military service:" Then lists sleep apnea and narcolepsy.

Then as per https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-medical-standards-for-enlistment-and-commission-3354046

we see "The causes for rejection for appointment or enlistment, WITHOUT approved waivers: include authenticated histories of
ADD/ADHD, Current or history of disorders with psychotic features such as schizophrenia (295), paranoid disorder (297), and other unspecified psychosis (298), Dyslexia.
Mood disorders such as depression, bipolar disorder, psychoses, and other unspecified depressive issues are disqualifying. Any history of mood disorders requiring medication and/or outpatient care for longer than six months by a mental health professional is also disqualifying.

SO YES having a mental disorder is a disqualifying feature.. SO WHY SHOULD gender dysporhia not be???

meatbringer
05-12-2019, 10:06 PM
Meet. Check out https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html.

Roughly 3/5th's down the page, it flat out says "The following conditions may disqualify you for military service:" Then lists sleep apnea and narcolepsy.

Then as per https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-medical-standards-for-enlistment-and-commission-3354046

we see "The causes for rejection for appointment or enlistment, WITHOUT approved waivers: include authenticated histories of
ADD/ADHD, Current or history of disorders with psychotic features such as schizophrenia (295), paranoid disorder (297), and other unspecified psychosis (298), Dyslexia.
Mood disorders such as depression, bipolar disorder, psychoses, and other unspecified depressive issues are disqualifying. Any history of mood disorders requiring medication and/or outpatient care for longer than six months by a mental health professional is also disqualifying.

SO YES having a mental disorder is a disqualifying feature.. SO WHY SHOULD gender dysporhia not be???

First of all, I'd like to thank you for acting like an adult and refraining from jabs at my wife, "snowflake" comments, "left wing crying" comments, and whatever other lame comments seem to be the norm on this forum anymore. Now, you are correct! However, the key is in the first sentence you posted: "MAY disqualify you..." meaning that it doesn't automatically disqualify you, because as I said, these are handled by a case by case basis, determining if the disorders actually interfere with your ability to serve. Sleep apnea is a disorder that is pretty common in the AF. There are people in my squadron right now who have it.

Also, the other disorders you listed state "...outpatient care for >6 months by a mental health professional..." Once again, this means you are not automatically disqualified, as you can receive treatment, but not for more than 6 months at a time by a mental health professional. So, once again, these disorders don't automatically disqualify you for having them, as they can be handled on a case by case basis.

Once again, thank you for the adult reply. Your post also reinforced the exact point I am trying to prove. If you don't know people in the military with sleep apnea or the other disorders listed, then you aren't paying attention or you live in a bubble.

FLAPS
05-12-2019, 10:11 PM
SO YES having a mental disorder is a disqualifying feature.. SO WHY SHOULD gender dysporhia not be???

Agreed. There are plenty of opportunities for gender-confused to serve, such as the Peace Corps, Foreign Legion, Australian Armed Services (yes, they're hiring foreigners). They can also pursue a career working for the DNC, to include the 99% of media outlets that they own and control. I hear they're also giving out free "RESIST" and "I'm still with HER" buttons to those who sign up.

FLAPS
05-12-2019, 10:15 PM
Sleep apnea is a disorder that is pretty common in the AF. There are people in my squadron right now who have it.

I'm still dying to know which Sq in your MXG is only at 60% deployable due to health conditions. Please tell. We'll keep it between us forum participants.

LogDog
05-12-2019, 10:31 PM
Meet. Check out https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html.

Roughly 3/5th's down the page, it flat out says "The following conditions may disqualify you for military service:" Then lists sleep apnea and narcolepsy.

Then as per https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-medical-standards-for-enlistment-and-commission-3354046

we see "The causes for rejection for appointment or enlistment, WITHOUT approved waivers: include authenticated histories of
ADD/ADHD, Current or history of disorders with psychotic features such as schizophrenia (295), paranoid disorder (297), and other unspecified psychosis (298), Dyslexia.
Mood disorders such as depression, bipolar disorder, psychoses, and other unspecified depressive issues are disqualifying. Any history of mood disorders requiring medication and/or outpatient care for longer than six months by a mental health professional is also disqualifying.
The key word is "may." The DoD has set the standards as to the medical conditions for enlistment.


SO YES having a mental disorder is a disqualifying feature.. SO WHY SHOULD gender dysporhia not be???
In the post before your post, I provided two links to DoD policy concerning what qualifies and disqualifies a person for military service and although your two links are informational they may not actually reflect DoD policy The reason gender dysporhia isn't considered a mental disorder is because it isn't an mental disorder. According to the American Psychological Association (APA) and the DoD gender dysporhia is not a mental disorder. From the APA:

Is being transgender a mental disorder?
A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety (https://www.apa.org/topics/anxiety), depression (https://www.apa.org/topics/depression) or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx) (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (http://www.apapracticecentral.org/reimbursement/icd-10-cm/index.aspx) (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."
APA (https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender).

FLAPS
05-12-2019, 11:24 PM
While people have personal opinions as to who can and can't serve, the decision still resides with the DoD.

Of course. If they're capable of performing their duties, home or deployed, no reason why they can't serve their country. That said, I will always believe that if you are born as a male, then you are a male until the day you die. If you are born a female, you are a female until the day you die.

If I get into a trans person's face to challenge them on this, or otherwise harass them about being a transgender person, then I AM a bigot. However, if I treat them with respect but continue to believe they are as they were born, to include admitting this IF ASKED, then I am NOT a bigot. Fair enough?

meatbringer
05-12-2019, 11:54 PM
Agreed. There are plenty of opportunities for gender-confused to serve, such as the Peace Corps, Foreign Legion, Australian Armed Services (yes, they're hiring foreigners). They can also pursue a career working for the DNC, to include the 99% of media outlets that they own and control. I hear they're also giving out free "RESIST" and "I'm still with HER" buttons to those who sign up.

You almost had me fooled. I thought for a split second that you were going to revert to an adult and actually contribute something to the conversation. Why would you ever do that, though?


I'm still dying to know which Sq in your MXG is only at 60% deployable due to health conditions. Please tell. We'll keep it between us forum participants.

It was at the sq level. I did my time in at MXS, and at one point we were in the sixty percentile range, mostly due to fat rednecks who couldn't take care of themselves properly or pass a PT test to save their lives.

LogDog
05-13-2019, 01:28 AM
Of course. If they're capable of performing their duties, home or deployed, no reason why they can't serve their country. That said, I will always believe that if you are born as a male, then you are a male until the day you die. If you are born a female, you are a female until the day you die.

If I get into a trans person's face to challenge them on this, or otherwise harass them about being a transgender person, then I AM a bigot. However, if I treat them with respect but continue to believe they are as they were born, to include admitting this IF ASKED, then I am NOT a bigot. Fair enough?
A bigot is a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. I don't think bigot applies to you.

However, a person who is prejudice has a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. I think you fall into the prejudice category.

garhkal
05-13-2019, 04:29 AM
I'm still dying to know which Sq in your MXG is only at 60% deployable due to health conditions. Please tell. We'll keep it between us forum participants.

Of those i knew in the mil who had Sleep apnea, ALL were either found during separation, OR got med discharged..


In the post before your post, I provided two links to DoD policy concerning what qualifies and disqualifies a person for military service and although your two links are informational they may not actually reflect DoD policy The reason gender dysporhia isn't considered a mental disorder is because it isn't an mental disorder. According to the American Psychological Association (APA) and the DoD gender dysporhia is not a mental disorder. From the APA:

And why Did it get removed?? OH YEA, the LGBTQ lobby bitched, and moaned to have it removed..

LogDog
05-13-2019, 04:54 AM
And why Did it get removed?? OH YEA, the LGBTQ lobby bitched, and moaned to have it removed..
And your proof of this is? Please provide the link(s) that prove your claim.

meatbringer
05-13-2019, 09:35 AM
Of those i knew in the mil who had Sleep apnea, ALL were either found during separation, OR got med discharged..

Sorry, there are, and have been, military members who have sleep apnea for quite some time. Also, the numbers of those who suffer from it have been on the rise for a long time. Not my fault that you and FLAPS live in a bubble completely devoid of facts and research.
https://aasm.org/active-duty-military-personnel-prone-to-sleep-disorders-and-short-sleep-duration/

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/05/16/research-shows-insomnia-and-sleep-apnea-rates-are-on-the-rise-in-the-military/

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/05/16/research-shows-insomnia-and-sleep-apnea-rates-are-on-the-rise-in-the-military/

You can also find plenty more information regarding those who have sleep apnea and still serve. The deciding factor? If you can perform your duties, meet the standards, etc, you can still serve. As I've stated many times now, there are plenty of people whom I still work with who have sleep apnea. Some even sleep with CPAP machines!

meatbringer
05-13-2019, 10:32 AM
And why Did it get removed?? OH YEA, the LGBTQ lobby bitched, and moaned to have it removed..

Yeah, totally! Great rebuttal/logic! It was LGBTQ people bitching...had nothing to do with the world's leading scientific organization representing psychology that's comprised of about 118K researchers, clinicians, and professors in the field. Never mind all the research, data, and findings; it was those scary gays complaining! Jesus....

SeaLawyer
05-13-2019, 11:31 AM
Let's refrain from personal insults.

No Way! It's too much fun and I have nothing but respect for each and every person's opinion here! Insults are half the fun and I have to give credit to all commenting... even MeatFlinger!

FLAPS
05-13-2019, 11:32 AM
However, a person who is prejudice has a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. I think you fall into the prejudice category. Makes sense...kind of like the masses of progressives who refused to believe Judge Kavanaugh's testimony concerning Ford's sexual assault accusation....just simply because, well, he's a white conservative man.

SeaLawyer
05-13-2019, 11:35 AM
Makes sense...kind of like the masses of progressives who refused to believe Judge Kavanaugh's testimony concerning Ford's sexual assault accusation....just simply because, well, he's a white conservative man.

I have to concur on this one!!!

FLAPS
05-13-2019, 11:44 AM
No Way! It's too much fun and I have nothing but respect for each and every person's opinion here! Insults are half the fun and I have to give credit to all commenting... even MeatFlinger!

I'm having too much fun expressing part opinion/part trolling to get Meatbringer riled up. This forum is nothing but entertainment for me, that's it. I sleep soundly at night, but I think Meatbringer spends his time at his desk crafting his long-winded, emotionally based rebuttals while guzzling Rip-It energy drinks. Meanwhile, on his hot flightline HIS troops are asking, "Where's Capt Meat-B at? I haven't seen him on the flightline in over a week." One guy responded, "I saw him outside of his 10x10 last night. Said he couldn't sleep because someone was bothering him on the internet, and on top of that he was passed over for this AMMOS course for the 5th time. Poor Meat-B. He was hoping to make his call-sign official by attending this class"

SeaLawyer
05-13-2019, 12:07 PM
I'm having too much fun expressing part opinion/part trolling to get Meatbringer riled up. This forum is nothing but entertainment for me, that's it. I sleep soundly at night, but I think Meatbringer spends his time at his desk crafting his long-winded, emotionally based rebuttals while guzzling Rip-It energy drinks. Meanwhile, on his hot flightline HIS troops are asking, "Where's Capt Meat-B at? I haven't seen him on the flightline in over a week." One guy responded, "I saw him outside of his 10x10 last night. Said he couldn't sleep because someone was bothering him on the internet, and on top of that he was passed over for this AMMOS course for the 5th time. Poor Meat-B. He was hoping to make his call-sign official by attending this class"

Jesus Christ on Crutches! I'm dying!!! Surely, MeatFlinger has a comeback for this!

meatbringer
05-13-2019, 12:41 PM
"Riled up?" When have I even shown in the slightest that I'm riled up? Have I even expressed any kind of anger, childish behavior, or level of annoyance? No, I haven't. Am I the one getting all upset and going off about "snowflakes," "bigots," telling lame wife insults, "left wing nonsense," or anything else of the sort? No, I'm the one who has been laughing at a ridiculous effort by a few uninformed, prejudice, and "uncomfortable" children who can't formulate a relevant argument. At one point you even told me to "GFYS" because I got under your skin, and showed your ignorance. It's sad, typical, and somewhat entertaining. I enjoy it when people blatantly display ignorance, especially when it's more than one of you, feeding off one another's childishness.

And now you are going on about Kavanaugh? What does that have to do with anything? None of you have been able to provide one relevant point or factual statement, so all you can do is talk trash, spout off nonsense, change the subject on a whim, and make extremely lame attempts at personal jabs. We would all be astonished if one of you were even capable of forming a relevant, well thought out statement.

Two entire threads on the same subject and you can't even make one good argumentative point that isn't driven by your ignorance or prejudice.

SeaLawyer
05-13-2019, 02:57 PM
"Riled up?" When have I even shown in the slightest that I'm riled up?

Looks like your riled up right now


Have I even expressed any kind of anger, childish behavior, or level of annoyance?

Yes! You have!!!


No, I haven't. Am I the one getting all upset and going off about "snowflakes," "bigots," telling lame wife insults, "left wing nonsense," or anything else of the sort? No, I'm the one who has been laughing at a ridiculous effort by a few uninformed, prejudice, and "uncomfortable" children who can't formulate a relevant argument. At one point you even told me to "GFYS" because I got under your skin, and showed your ignorance. It's sad, typical, and somewhat entertaining. I enjoy it when people blatantly display ignorance, especially when it's more than one of you, feeding off one another's childishness.

Snowflake, bigot, and left-wing... How prejudice yourself!




And now you are going on about Kavanaugh? What does that have to do with anything? None of you have been able to provide one relevant point or factual statement, so all you can do is talk trash, spout off nonsense, change the subject on a whim, and make extremely lame attempts at personal jabs. We would all be astonished if one of you were even capable of forming a relevant, well thought out statement.

Like you have either!



Two entire threads on the same subject and you can't even make one good argumentative point that isn't driven by your ignorance or prejudice.

On a side note: You do make some good arguments and I'm glad to see you holding your ground in this forum; contrary to what Moljner... or whatever his avatar is... believes.

Well said MeatBringer!!! Excellent Insults and no personal offense taken!

FLAPS
05-13-2019, 03:13 PM
At one point you even told me to "GFYS" because I got under your skin, and showed your ignorance.

Yeah....go find yourself. GFYS

FLAPS
05-13-2019, 03:19 PM
Looks like your riled up right now

He's so fired up right now, cursing out loud to himself behind his closed office door. His pro-super is hearing everything, wondering "this Capt has been so defensive and angry since he tried to force HIS people to show up to his promotion ceremony, yet only his boss, Chief and wife showed up."

meatbringer
05-14-2019, 12:40 AM
Looks like your riled up right now
Really? How?


"Yes! You have!!!"

When? Please cite one instance where I have.


"Snowflake, bigot, and left-wing... How prejudice yourself!"

Yes, these are all terms that FLAPS spouts off when he isn't capable of debating or forming/expressing a coherent thought.




"On a side note: You do make some good arguments and I'm glad to see you holding your ground in this forum; contrary to what Moljner... or whatever his avatar is... believes.

Well said MeatBringer!!! Excellent Insults and no personal offense taken!"

It's nice to see that the conversation has completely devolved into you guys just spouting nonsensical talking points about Kavanaugh, snowflakes, etc. The truth is that neither of you have been able to make one good argumentative point this entire time, so you do what only people like you can do: divert, insult, act childish, and try to derail the conversation altogether. The sad reality is that you are scared and uncomfortable about the subject and transgender people, and you aren't capable of understanding any of the logic or scientific evidence that derails your misconceptions and fears. This entire thread has proven that, and anyone who has actually read through the conversation can easily see that.

I guess since you can't even formulate an argument, the best course of action for you would to pretend that you have just been joking and trying to "rile people up" this entire time. Way to go.

meatbringer
05-14-2019, 12:48 AM
He's so fired up right now, cursing out loud to himself behind his closed office door. His pro-super is hearing everything, wondering "this Capt has been so defensive and angry since he tried to force HIS people to show up to his promotion ceremony, yet only his boss, Chief and wife showed up."

This entire forum/website would probably crash if you ever provided one valid point in a debate. Just acknowledge that you aren't capable of having an adult conversation or understanding concepts not driven by your fear and level of comfort...everyone else already acknowledges it. Way to go, FLAPS, you've made zero points in two separate threads on the same subject, and have only highlighted your ignorance even more.

You better get going, man; Fox News is coming on soon. You need to be told what to hate and feel uncomfortable about.

Mjölnir
05-14-2019, 12:49 AM
Thread has just turned into back and forth insults.

Locked